Doug: 0:29

We finally made it. We're here.

Ron: 0:32

Are you guys excited we got an Emmy? Can we get those?

Doug: 0:37

Golden Globes only.

Ron: 0:38

I think that's the one right Potties. We get potties.

Doug: 0:45

So terrible. No, we're finally here. We have, uh reached the threshold. We want to thank all of you on cannibals for listening. Um, we're now in the process of going under full transition into making this a uh faith and uh cher uh, that we can proceed forward in a, in a space of worship. And I guess, to open this up, I was curious, um, as we move the podcast into becoming a cult, um, what do you think some of our traditions should be? What type of membership are we looking for? Um, do our listeners need to get more serious? What do you think?

Ron: 1:25

Well, I understand that this is going to be big news to our listeners, but a lot of you have been asking for this and, frankly, this has been our goal from the very beginning. I think the core tenets of our project let's call it would be obviously be well unto others. Yeah.

Doug: 1:44

It's always a staple right enrich the world yeah uh live laugh learn. And when you say, enrich the world, like capitalism right yeah, like uh get get rich or die try it.

Ron: 1:57

Yeah, get that fat stack, son. That's good, that's up there for sure.

Don: 2:05

For me it always has been good, yeah, other podcasts entertain, we enlighten.

Doug: 2:11

Yeah, okay, now we're getting somewhere? Um. Are any of us capable? This is another thing I was thinking of is it would have been good to announce this earlier. Are we capable of anything supernatural?

Ron: 2:26

Yeah, um what do you do? I'm very good at uh conversation at parties oh yeah, just phenomenal conversant I've seen brains shut down.

Doug: 2:40

Yeah, when you've begun, yeah, to use that silvery tongue of yours.

Ron: 2:45

Yeah, that's true, I can usually tell when people are tired of me speaking and then I can. I can leave the conversation, I can end it.

Doug: 2:53

Yeah, I can tell when people are tired period. I think just that looking at them.

Ron: 2:58

Yeah, that's a big one, it's not, you go and you put your hand on them and you restore energy to them.

Doug: 3:04

Yeah, usually I scare them and then they adrenaline kind of bring something back.

Ron: 3:08

They run away and you're like that's energy baby.

Doug: 3:10

I don't know, and you have listeners. I mean send us your, your emails, your text messages, po box letters, whatever you can for what would impress you. We got to keep this going. Don anything supernatural that you can do.

Don: 3:23

No, I'm just more of a follower, I think I can make Kool-Aid.

Ron: 3:33

You have the practical know-how that is required to maintain this organization.

Doug: 3:36

Yeah, for sure. Well, hopefully we don't start calling you Brian and yeah, go in that direction. But yeah, to be honest, I'm not a huge fan of cults. I'm not really a huge fan oh, I don't actually want our podcast were you testing me?

Ron: 3:52

yeah, I feel a little caught out in the open.

Doug: 3:55

This is gonna be the last meeting with ron, but it's been fun it's been fun. I'll tell you that. Um no, yeah, I'm not really a big fan of cults. I think they might have a history of doing some bad stuff. Have you ever been in a cult? I've wondered about that.

Ron: 4:15

You're not sure I don't know I get it right. What is a cult really? You say cult and you say they're all bad. But I was thinking like, are all cults bad? There must have been a good cult. There's got to be some good cults. Can we go back? What is the original cult? I mean the word cult right comes from what the ancient Greek cults of the Greek gods, the?

Don: 4:38

cult comes from Latin cultus, which means worship Right.

Ron: 4:46

It's just a person who worships right. So what?

Doug: 4:47

there were like cults of dianysios and, uh, afroditi excellent pronunciation right and those weren't necessarily bad all the time probably I'd like to know I've never been a part of them well, and then I also think I think of cult followings as well yeah yeah, there's a lot of movies that I enjoy.

Doug: 5:10

I have a signed football from tom room, yeah, from tommy wiseau and that's considered one of the greatest cult films of all time, does have a cult following does when you go see it in a theater in los angeles especially? It seems that the members of the audience are almost engaged in a rapturous behavior that could be called religious I think, uh, my argument is that somewhere in modern parlance the word cult uh dawned a negative connotation.

Ron: 5:39

Right a conversation of evil and and being bad, or or uh, being mindless, right, um, but like don said it really just described worshipers or worship the act of worship and I don't. I don't think we think worship is bad, um, so I'm just interested in, like, what's the line between cult worship and worship?

Don: 6:00

good worship. The word, as we understand today, started to be used by psychologists in the early 20th century to um to refer to groups that are led by a charismatic leader, um, that's usually secretive in nature. The, the personality, is what carries the, the, the system, forward. Separate from a religious cult, which um would be just a group of believers, and so historically, that would be how that word had been used, like in ancient times. Like you were talking about, the cult, different gods would refer to the worship practices of, of followers of Dionysus or Aphrodite or Zeus, or so. It didn't have a negative. However, there have always been those like sectarian outsiders that are challenging established religion, that are often like.

Don: 6:52

Even though the word didn't exist, they were still sort of identified as dangerous outsiders who had a different belief system or were challenging a belief system or so that has existed always, but yeah, you're, you're quakers and you're protestants and things right even even jesus would have been considered an outsider to the, the established religion, at the time.

Doug: 7:16

So coming in on a donkey. Yeah, it's a very different. Uh, it's a very different um thing. It's interesting even bringing that up because I've actually sat in on I'm not not a practicing Quaker by any means, but I have sat in on a Quaker prayer meeting. And to sit in a room for 45 minutes before anybody speaks anything that they're hearing, yeah, I could see certain groups of people saying it seems like this is cult-like behavior. Yeah, it's interesting. It's interesting to get to the bottom, and you're right, and maybe I did spin this very negatively right away Like cult doesn't have to necessarily be bad.

Ron: 7:52

I mean, they probably are right.

Doug: 7:54

And I'm going to say what if I told you I knew about a pretty bad one? What if I just objectively told you, I think this one's bad?

Ron: 8:04

Yeah, I believe it. When. Who's our bad? What bad cult you found for us today, doug. Well, let's go back to 1995.

Doug: 8:12

What were you doing in 1995?

Ron: 8:15

oh, that's two years after jurassic park came out so probably watching jurassic park on vhs in my living room, the cult is a six-year-old yeah, yeah, probably eagerly awaiting. I'm sure the lost world is around the corner, maybe a trailer. Jurassic Park on VHS in my living room, the cult of Spielberg yeah, probably eagerly awaiting. I'm sure the Lost World is around the corner. Maybe a trailer for it has already come out. Okay, space Jam maybe came out.

Doug: 8:36

You believe you can fly?

Ron: 8:37

Yeah, I can see that that's what I'm doing in 1995. All right, don, what are you doing in 1995?

Don: 8:44

I'm studying. I'm in college Okay, hyper-focused. I'm learning.

Ron: 8:48

In many ways I was studying too, just like that.

Doug: 8:52

I was not. There's nothing in my life resembling studying at that time. Well, in 1995, there was an incident in Japan March 20th to be exact that during Tokyo's busiest morning, commute chaos erupted on the underground. There were five coordinated attacks.

Don: 9:12

Can I just say that Tokyo subways are chaos all the time anyways. Have you ever seen pictures of them?

Doug: 9:18

I have.

Don: 9:21

The attendants are like shoving people into the cars, wrapping them in so that way the train.

Ron: 9:26

yeah, oh, it's chaos. I feel like they can pop up in montages where people are like the people are ants, and then you'll, they'll show you that sounds very organized to me.

Doug: 9:40

I don't know if that sounds like chaos If you have people pushing you into it.

Don: 9:43

It sounds like forced order more than anything, it means your entire subway ride is made up of contact on all sides.

Doug: 9:49

Yeah, I did experience that in the tube in London where somebody had entered the vehicle by literally just leaning on people, hearing people go, oh God, which is still one of my funniest memories of public transit, but uh not that I have many, but I'm sorry I interrupted you.

Don: 10:11

No, I liked it.

Doug: 10:11

I liked it 1995, it was tokyo. Yes, um, there were five coordinated attacks on the tokyo subway using something called sarin gas that left 13 dead, over over a thousand injured and a nation in shock. This was delivered during the morning, of course, as this was happening, and, interestingly enough, this occurred in an area that intersected, where each of these trains that were attacked, that were attacked, actually all of their exit routes led to the major government and police stations in the Tokyo area. And, through what we know now, we know that this is the work of the Aum Shinrikyo cult, which, famously, this was probably their most significant attack. They do have some other moments that we're going to discuss, but it did lead to the deaths and the hurting of many, and this is part of the reason that I'm going to argue that this is a bad call.

Ron: 11:24

Only part. That's kind of unfair. I was trying to make it all right and you can't bring out the terrorist cult it's.

Doug: 11:32

It's really unfortunate, um so I had either of you heard of this uh incident before we got to talking I have.

Ron: 11:40

Yeah, I've heard of this uh incident. I've heard of this group. Uh, I can't say I'm an expert about it, but it's come across my way in my travels, so you haven't watched their anime. No, they have an anime. Yeah, you can watch the whole thing, is it Gundam?

Doug: 11:54

Is it?

Ron: 11:54

Gundam Shinrikyo Allegory.

Doug: 11:58

It very much is in that style. It does not have any giant mecha robots, but, yes, the animation style is incredibly similar and, yeah, if you YouTube the cult, you can watch the hour and two minutes, which I wish I could say that I did that level of research that I decided to put myself through that.

Ron: 12:19

But I have watched a little bit of it. So it's an anime about like this the of this group or this group produced an anime as a sort of like propaganda item.

Doug: 12:29

This group produced the anime to really push their leader. Yeah, okay, wow, he's flying around. His hair is always flowing in the wind. He's.

Ron: 12:39

Dragon Ball he's Super Saiyan. He's the OG Super Saiyan.

Doug: 12:43

I don't want to put this on Dragon Ball, because I love Dragon Ball so much, but yeah, that's what they're trying to push, to say the least. Yeah, don, were you familiar?

Don: 12:52

with this before. Yes, because I was an adult when it happened. Okay, I saw it on the news and yes, Remember when I said I was studying.

Doug: 13:04

That was the most obvious thing you could have said okay, so don's gonna take it away from here. Have a great day everybody. Uh, good to know. Yeah, it was. It was a very big news story. Um. I remember my parents talking about it when I was young. Um, and this um came to light. Um, and this was all that I had known of them. But doing a little bit more research, there is quite, there's quite a lot to unpack here. But I think I became most interested in this because they came around at such an interesting time in Japan and I think it's just there's a lot of questions that I have that I'm curious if you have the same curiosities about how something that seems so innocent at first can turn into something like this. Because at its roots, the Aum Shinrikyo cult started as a group of people that wanted to change the world for the better through yoga. That is the origins. It started with yoga and uh have either of you done yoga before?

Ron: 14:09

Yeah, I won't anymore though. Okay, careful, next time you go to downward dog freaks you could you could.

Doug: 14:16

You could go to there. Um, yeah, there's. It's interesting because I've uh, I've only engaged in it through trying to do it with my wife through a YouTube video. I've never been to an actual class, but anybody that I know that practices yoga and they're not part of this cult but essentially are part of yoga practice it seems to be a very beneficial thing for their life and so, knowing that that's a huge part of these origins, it kind of remains confusing to me of how do we get to the point that we're attacking mass groups of civilians in your own country? So yeah, there's a lot to unpack here. So this cult was founded in 1984 by Ashoka Asahara.

Doug: 15:00

Originally was born Chizuo Matsumoto. He was partially blind, studied yoga and mysticism and he famously again, he's partially blind and the school that he was sent to was a school for the blind. He's documented as being a tremendous bully because he essentially was less blind than many of his other students and would steal their money and give it back to them, and was basically starting like rackets at their school in which he would give the money back if they would do favors for him. And the reason this is often brought up is people will point to this and say see, he had tendencies even at the beginning. He was always going to start a cult, which I think is a little bit silly, to kind of go through.

Ron: 15:49

I mean, it makes sense. It's the old idiom, right Like in the land of the blind, the partially blind is king yeah.

Don: 16:03

I had a tattoo.

Doug: 16:15

That's good, that's good, that's good. Um, so he, uh, he. He grows up to get into snake oil sale, uh, sales, he gets into again. Part of the mysticism, um, is he ends up selling tangerine peel oil and water as an elixir to heal. He's arrested for this and during his time he gets deeper into the practice of studying Buddhism and comes out of his prison experience as an enlightened human being. The cult starts in that he is a very accomplished yogi. I believe that's the term yeah, I've heard that word.

Doug: 16:52

Okay, yeah, I believe like the bear.

Ron: 16:55

Yeah, yeah, yeah, he's one of the best bears and uh was yogi bear part of them is that their anime that's right, the picnic basket, it's all making sense and downward dog.

Doug: 17:12

Those two things just in common. Um, somebody had to do it, don's got us. Um. What's interesting is he leaves, yeah, the. The practice of looking at something that theoretically would be helping people when she starts studying Eastern medicine he uses this to rip people off comes out of Buddhism and the life of essentially the acceptance of non-attachment principles and, you know, avoiding suffering through the lack of attachment to things, and then begins to amass followers that need to pay to be a part of his teachings, especially through the following years, because he famously acquires a ton of gifts and cash that he brings to the Dalai Lama to set up a meeting with him, to which he says he wants to discuss and have a conversation. But the whole purpose of him doing that was actually just to stage photographs of him being on stage with him, um, to which later he uses to indicate that um, he's been blessed by the dalai lama in his pursuit of um kind of religious freedom. Um, he has a book and I don't want to mess up this title when he hits his peak.

Ron: 18:41

Uh, let me is it like uh buddhism, colon neon genesis it's, it's almost that good.

Doug: 18:52

Um, there we go, declaring myself the Christ, disclosing the true meanings of Jesus Christ's gospel Shoko, asahara. Yeah, this is where we really.

Ron: 19:13

I mean, he's not the first one. There's good money in declaring yourself the Christ.

Doug: 19:18

No, not by any means. When's this all happening? This is the 70s or the 80s, so he founds this in 84 and it's really focused on yoga at this time. And what's interesting is is he's posting advertisements in a magazine called twilight zone magazine, which is a science fiction magazine, yeah, and so he is intentionally kind of going this route of like there there's all this mystical, you know, he's almost like playing into the fact that it's this very sci-fi, conspiratorial, like Ooh, you know, on top of it, and it seems that at a certain point he starts just taking it more seriously.

Ron: 19:54

Well, like L Ron Hubbard was doing the same thing just a few years earlier, right yeah?

Doug: 19:58

There's kind of a playbook there, yeah, and that's that's kind of what I I you know I've done much less.

Ron: 20:07

Is it because, like people who are into sci-fi and fantasy, they're already sort of like alternative, they're already interested in like alternative? Ideas it's a great course, and so you can kind of warm in with a fun sci-fi premise and then kind of flip the switch on them and be like well, but you're a smart person. You already think outside the box. Why can't you go a little further?

Doug: 20:26

Right? I would think so. The documentary that I watched to pull a lot of this information is based on the book that was published about the cult and it's interesting because they take a stance that because Japan in the 1980s is at the peak of consumerism and doing pretty well financially, that there's a counter culture that's emerging, saying like I don't know if all of this success and economic wealth is actually a good thing for the soul, leading to people wanting more. And so then these types of things pop up of like where can this be? And they're also going to attribute it a lot to the forced retiring of the idea of the God emperor in Japan following the end of world war two. And like who, where does religion come from in Japan? And there's like a whole identity that's being mixed around. It's it's difficult to say, especially not being a social scientist and studying up on Japan, but again, going with kind of what you just said, I think a lot of times these are how these things happen is like the right social conditions come along and people generally begin to follow. So starts off. You know, simple enough, that he's incredibly talented at yoga and bringing people to physical and spiritual harmony, but then this leads to.

Doug: 21:48

He was famous for taking a photograph where he's levitating. So he's in the full Lotus pose, which essentially looks like you're sitting cross-legged, but you've brought both of your feet up into the ball socket of your hip as you're as you're sitting, which requires tremendous flexibility. Well, the photo was taken because he essentially used his glute and hamstring muscles to like launch himself off the ground in a hop in that position. And the descriptor under the photo and one of their pamphlets says look at, look at our god in in peace. As their pamphlets says look at our God in peace. Or look at the Lamb of God in peace, as he's levitating off the ground. And what's hilarious is, if you look at his facial expression, it looks like he's doing like a deep squat with tons of weight on his back, like just ah, it's like he launched into the air?

Ron: 22:40

Not at all. In peace, not at all in peace.

Doug: 22:43

But yeah, essentially made these claims for that. So where this starts to take off, I think, is money, because they're.

Ron: 22:55

It started off good and pure but money. Like we know, this story Don Money corrupts and it turned it into.

Don: 23:04

Not me. No, send all your money to me. I'm not corrupt.

Doug: 23:12

That's where we're going, baby. So he begins to attract students from the university who are more free-minded and thinking and one of the um. He essentially starts to employ a team who are in the sciences Um and this is going to come around later. But he starts to get some that are into engineering and architecture and science Um, and they start some very aggressive street outreach. They begin to use a media production company that produces anime for them that like portrays him uh with uh by the way, he's very much not blind in the anime like he really has done a number.

Ron: 23:53

Not blind at all, no very much, yeah, his eyes are completely open to the world and never forget your roots.

Doug: 24:00

It's a bummer, exactly um. And they would also use free yoga classes essentially to bring people in before the spiritual portion would um start? But the interesting thing is the message always followed you don't need things of this world, you don't need money to satisfy you. That's what's being taught to you by the culture. So, as don just said, give all that to me, give it's a good old choco. He'll take care of you and all will be well.

Ron: 24:25

And no one did, because no one would fall for that. Well, membership in Japan peaks at around 10,000 people in the early 90s and it starts to get incredibly, yeah, so is this kind of like a telephone cult, right, like are people meeting in a physical space, or is it kind of one of those things where, like hey, send us some wire, some money over the phone and we'll give you a voicemail blessing or something?

Doug: 24:56

Physical space. People are leaving. They're building kind of commune type structures. Okay, um, in a mountain town outside of fuji, um, they are reconciling in different meeting halls and what's interesting is like there's actual clips you can find of newscasters that are having shoko on the news he's again going back to, as don said, incredibly charismatic, great at speaking. Um, a lot of television shows are bringing him on as a talk show host where he's demonstrating different enlightening rituals and people that are receiving, you know, these spiritual bonuses and it's very out of place, like when you watch it, like there's a sequence of him rubbing his thumb on somebody's like forehead, back and forth and this woman starts convulsing and kind shaking and uh, it's.

Ron: 25:44

it's fairly disturbing to watch entertainment, though right like they're not, they're like well, this is this guy's gonna pull views. He's a freak right, or?

Doug: 25:52

or they believe them, and then that's fun too, or something yeah, that's the strange part, is it's like, yeah, where are we with that?

Doug: 26:00

is is it a matter of like it's just gonna pull views, or are they trying to play into this like, hey, kids, we all know you're looking for religious enlightenment and freedom and we've got the best version here in japan it's? It's tough to say um, because they yeah, they seem they have them on a lot. Um, so probably somewhere in the middle is my guess yeah, it's like getting jesse ventura on.

Ron: 26:21

You know, like you always, he's gonna draw people there and so why not? Absolutely, jesse ventura is actually that's a bad. I like jesse ventura.

Doug: 26:29

Get him on here, he's not that crazy I said some crazy things, but he's all, mostly all there I'd really like to hear you defend that on a podcast. Please give us jesse's life jess is all right.

Ron: 26:41

Everyone in Minnesota loves Jesse Absolutely.

Doug: 26:47

And his wonderful voice. Yeah, so recruitment is beginning to peak. Another interesting thing happens, so talk to you about the team of educational groups. He starts running rituals in which, if you'd like to and I think this is where we get into the isn't good, or maybe it is really good, I don't know you tell me um, there's deeper levels that you can hit. You're like, now you're in, you're in on sharing, yeah, but are would you like to go deeper?

Ron: 27:15

yeah, of course, okay, fantastic.

Doug: 27:17

There's no end to my dedication to this for the equivalent of what somebody described as around eight thousand one hundred dollars of today's money. Um, you could drink a small amount of his blood oh, that's to steal of course I will good.

Ron: 27:33

Good, we're gonna get that.

Doug: 27:34

If I gotta drink it, I can't just, yeah, put it on my nightstand, uh no there was also a less involved ritual in which, because he was so clean and this is way before OnlyFans you could also drink his bath water. He was doing that. Oh yeah, I'm going to pass on that Trendsetter Big time, but my, it's just.

Don: 27:56

I start to get a little bit cringy over this $7,000 headphones too, you could just listen to him and his brain waves would enter your ears. Absolutely, absolutely A little less invasive.

Ron: 28:09

Yeah, I'll take that one. It's cheaper too. Absolutely, I get these headphones.

Doug: 28:15

They later found out that probably that some of the first people who died that were part of the cult is. There was another initiation ritual to go deeper with. The guru was an isolation chamber in which he would put tons of people's bodies for several days in a completely dark and cold space, like it would usually be built underground. They would shield it off. You'd have to stay there for a certain amount of time and then you would come out enlightened. Well, years later, when they raided the compound that we'll talk about, um, they found that there were bodies in there that had been cremated, that most likely they had died from asphyxiation or dehydration. Um, while in this experience and you might be wondering after you go deeper with this, what do you get? What? What do you? What do you think you receive?

Ron: 29:02

I mean it must be like an enlightenment, a piece of the soul, A signed copy of Dianetics.

Doug: 29:08

Yeah, big time Close. It was actually a cassette tape of the Shoko repeating over and over in Japanese do good works, do good works, do good works, do better things, continue meditation, continue meditation, continue meditation. Suffering is behind. Suffering is behind, over and over again, as quickly as possible, uh, just hours long, and he would individually record these for each of the members that goes through. Um the process, that's it.

Ron: 29:35

Yeah, it's a little bit like I thought. I feel like I've seen some of these things before and it seems like the process is supposed to. I'm supposed to show up with some sort of hole in my psyche or soul or trauma, and then this person's supposed to do some weird shit to me and then I come back healed from that right.

Doug: 29:55

That's not how this works. I wanted that for you, he didn't want that for you, so he he wanted you to buy the blood, so buy the blood buy the and I just get a cassette.

Ron: 30:05

Why can't I just buy the cassette?

Doug: 30:07

he's gonna record it for you.

Ron: 30:08

It's gonna be, and only I'll just buy it only the most privileged just let me buy only the most privileged.

Doug: 30:14

You must be isolated first, then you can have the cassette okay sorry it doesn't work out well for you, so a different cult.

Ron: 30:23

Yeah, I'm sorry, I get how I kind of uh, we'll get into this later, I'm sure, but I'm sure we'll eventually talk into why do people arrive at these things right, when they subject themselves to these things this group of people is unusual because it it was phd students and scientists and people who are legitimately smart, right and not the usual.

Don: 30:50

You know when you watch a TV show that has a cult it's usually you know easily. You know fooled people who are recruited into these groups Disconnected.

Ron: 31:01

In this case, it was society or community in some way. Yeah, it wasn't that.

Doug: 31:05

So it's yeah it serves, um, yeah, as a, as, maybe a deeper warning on, you know, like again, right place, right time, because how does that happen? But here we are, um, there was another group that was record, uh, recorded on entering, which was a group of language students, um, who studied specifically russian. Any ideas of why shoko would be so excited to have russian speaking members of his cult? For the vodka definitely that potato whiskey does it right. That's exactly.

Ron: 31:45

I don't know when. Is this 80s Something to do with the Cold War? Yeah, we're at the end of the 80s, early 90s. Well, some stumps Nukes. Does he want nuclear weapons, is he?

Doug: 32:02

thinking about weapons.

Ron: 32:04

Oh, we're thinking about weapons. Why are we thinking?

Doug: 32:06

about weapons. Well our boy is able to amass about 30,000 members at its peak in Russia. That start to meet and the main reason.

Ron: 32:17

And the scientists and engineers, again Russian ones.

Doug: 32:20

Well, if there's ever been a group of people that are interested in sharing their knowledge of weapons construction and military-grade helicopters, and all these things that we're going to get into the Russians are going to be way more interested in talking with him about this, and so they make a concerted effort to do this. Effort to do this as this increases and as you have a group of people that are buying your book that you are the Christ and they'll isolate for you, they'll drink your blood, they'll drink your bath water and they'll pretend to levitate with you. Maybe he did, who knows? I haven't drank the blood, but you begin to think very highly of yourself.

Doug: 33:05

I think that this leads to some dangerous ways that you can think Kind of like we do, we think highly of ourselves now. I mean, why do you think I asked about you know how you'd start to run the Uncannibals?

Ron: 33:20

No, I get it. I'm saying I empathize with our shoko protagonist here.

Doug: 33:25

Yeah, protagonist indeed. Um well, it leads to other thoughts. Um, if you're the christ, you could also be the, uh, the devil.

Ron: 33:36

Why stop at the christ when?

Doug: 33:38

I could be the devil or the leader of the country of japan. So um decides uh to run uh that.

Doug: 33:48

Yeah, they run shoko as a candidate um in national elect in elections under the truth party um and always never been a bad truth party no, no, absolutely, um for this, um, at the height of this, because I mean, of course he's going to get elected, he's got all of these people under his belt, so, and of course, you, I know, I know that, um, no, he, yeah, he, he doesn't, he doesn't want the election, he doesn't win the election.

Ron: 34:26

I was trying to build that up into and of course you heard about him because he was the leader right and I'm pretty sure he wasn't, but I could see how he might have almost been yeah, he he. Was it a landslide, or was it close?

Doug: 34:34

wasn't even close okay, just got, so he's popular, but yeah, 30 000 russians.

Ron: 34:40

He only takes you so far when you want to be elected in Japan, I guess it's unfortunate.

Doug: 34:46

Yeah, he doesn't do too well. This is catastrophic for him, considering what he's running in this cult Because, as a follower, now that you've been indoctrinated into the cult, how would you view your leader if he's?

Ron: 35:05

not taking well. Clearly, it's not the leader's fault, it's the world's fault there we go. The world is run by demons and oni and we need to. I get it now I understand where the attacks come from.

Doug: 35:22

Damn it the cult takes a very distinctive turn towards the apocalypse.

Ron: 35:28

Uh following this, oh, they just want not to overthrow the government, they just want the whole apocalypse well, if he's not elected, it can't be a world that's pure good and right oh, so it's not just so we're not stopping at the nation.

Doug: 35:41

It must be the whole cosmos yeah, this is, that's correct.

Doug: 35:47

So this moment really takes things in a dark direction, in which he essentially says well, only reason that this couldn't have happened is our world is coming to an end. He begins to preach doctrine about how they are the sole responsible purveyors, and again, this is like only to his most enlightened and the ones in the innermost circle. Again, this is like only to his most enlightened and the ones in the innermost circle. We are the ones that are responsible for taking people into the afterlife and purifying the earth of those that would work against us. So he takes this very personally, to say the least. And, yeah, everything becomes apocalyptic. And, um, and the compound that he um, that they're um, they're in, they um, the group of scientists that I brought up earlier, um, have a. They have numbered buildings, uh, that are in in the compound and building. Six out of the eight that I believe were there. Building 6 was dedicated to the production of chemicals and gases that could be used in warfare. Later, when the compound was raided, they also found knockoff Kalashnikovs that were being built so they could have armed forces, but their big focus was on producing agents that could be used to attack and basically perform terrorist attacks on people, which is where eventually we get the intersection of when this attack happens on the subway.

Doug: 37:27

There is a group and it's interesting because documentary outlines that there were eight people that were killed in the Matsumoto region outside of Mount Fuji that had died from various conditions in which their lungs stopped working or they experienced tremendous burning in their eyes. This included people that were turning on their cars and then suddenly they went. The sun turned red. I couldn't breathe, I couldn't see, I had to go inside of the house and we had to call a hospital immediately, and so some of these people had survived.

Doug: 38:05

But what they had found is that the group was essentially testing this agent in these smaller regions, like these smaller towns, to see and test, like how effective it would be in killing people quickly. And what's interesting is, is this group, like these deaths that happen? They didn't push further into investigation. A lot of those like were kind of open investigations that they didn't pay much attention to. And there's a very strong voice of people that are outraged in Japan because had those investigations been pursued and looking how close the compound was to where they were at, it's highly possible they maybe could have stopped the 1995 attacks, especially considering those deaths had happened in 1994. It's difficult to say, but this one is big.

Ron: 38:54

It's kind of like a problem of like, sometimes the imagination of like the security forces is not up to task, right, like, why would you think this weird guy you saw on TV is amassing an army? You know like, until the bad thing happens, right, then we can calibrate and adjust, but then some new insane bad thing will always happen, right yeah.

Doug: 39:17

Well, they also had had an incident in 1989. So this is before he had ran. The cult was getting tremendous pressure from a lawyer named Susumi Sakamoto, who specifically engaged in anti-cult um, you know, like lawsuits and investigations and because of some of the suspect behavior and like the fact that people were leaving their homes, um, there had been incidents we haven't even gotten into. They had found that people have been dosed with lsd and also um, electro um, and they're not quite electroshock that's not exactly the word but essentially electric probes that are being installed on people's heads to simulate LSD while people are having these yoga experiences. He begins to research that. I think something's up here, because we're seeing that so many people are joining this and then never leaving the group, like they just stick with the group and then they can't ever go outside again, which is where the cult-like behavior shows up.

Doug: 40:16

Well, in 1989, tsutsumi Sakamoto and his wife and infant son were found dead in their home. He had hammer wounds to his face. They had been injecting him with potassium, potassium chloride that's the that believed the compound. Yeah, potassium chloride had been injected into each of them and the bodies of the um. They found the lawyer, but the bodies of the son and the wife were found several years later, split between three different places, um, in order to kind of throw the scent of the police off. But the murder of this lawyer clearly would have been connected, because most of the activity and the publicity of him moving forward was dedicated to this cult. Him being wiped off the face of the earth also could have been one of these signals, essentially saying like, oh, we probably shouldn't mess with them because when um, the, when the government had changed that the emperor was not declared the religious um, the legalistic religious group in Japan, that that was like the, the state mandated religion that people were in, there was a group. I need to look up their name.

Ron: 41:36

You're talking about the end of World War II right, yes. The emperor is forced by the United States or Douglas MacArthur right to revoke his god ship. Yes, his god emperor of Dune ship. He has to give up that card. He wasn't a worm.

Doug: 41:53

That's the only thing, state Shinto. Here we are, the Toko or the Special Hire Police. They were also known by their nicknames the Peace Police or the Thought Police for any of you Orwellians out there that made sure that they carried out civil law enforcement, controlled political groups and ideologies that deemed to threaten the public order of the Empire of Japan or the godhood of the emperor. That just sounds like goodness.

Ron: 42:25

Yeah, I want them.

Don: 42:28

Why don't?

Doug: 42:28

we have more of them. We need to get back to 1911, to 1945.

Ron: 42:32

Japan there's, japan there's never a bad party called the truth party. There's never a bad police called the thought police.

Don: 42:40

It's like there's a deity of irony that just makes sure that everything is named.

Ron: 42:44

Yeah, that's right If I just name the thing something good, they can't possibly be bad.

Doug: 42:50

Yeah that's right, something good, they can't possibly be bad. Yeah, that's right. Um, going back to the documentary, it speculates that because there had been such tremendous religious enforcement, I mean with a group called the thought police you can't really make it up, right that they didn't want to push too hard on a group of people that are trying to start a national identity with a new religion in japan right, because it would be perceived as the same.

Ron: 43:12

That's always the the like rub with these sorts of things. Right, it's like you can clearly look at a lot of cults and be like this is bad, but you can't like go and do a waco, because look what happened at waco, right? Like yeah so there's like, there's never. It seems like a good solution to these right, there's not, but it doesn't like was solution to these Right?

Doug: 43:33

There's not. It's like wasps.

Ron: 43:34

It doesn't seem to be. There's no good. I can't let the wasps live. It's not going to be good if I go and get them out either.

Doug: 43:44

Well, march 20th 1995, as I said, they executed their biggest attack, leading to the deaths of 13 and thousands who were injured. And still, to this day, there are people that are dealing with chronic breathing and health issues from the attack. Evidence is gathered. They finally raid the compound in May of 1995. And Shoko Asahara is arrested at that time, finding the explosive drugs, chemical weapons and Russian helicopters as well. Yes, they were getting ready.

Ron: 44:25

He's making the helicopters yeah, they were putting together helicopters that they could. Scientists suck man. Keep your scientists well paid, so they don't join a.

Doug: 44:36

Leaders, including asahara, are sentenced to death and, shockingly, it was the execution of asahara actually only happened in july of 2018. Wow, yeah, uh, that's where when those started. So he was in prison for a very long time but the trial took eight years.

Don: 44:53

Oh okay, so I didn't know that yeah, the trial started in 1996 and it wasn't finished until 2004. Um, because they they tried each of the 13 counts separately and so it was a. It was very complex and there was there's 13 other leaders that were also um be on trial for the same at the same time. So, um, so yeah, he wasn't sentenced until 2004. Um, but even so, the length between sentencing and the execution is it's lengthy for Japan standards, the 14 years in between.

Ron: 45:27

So yeah, this is part of the walking the line of not wanting to seem to. They wanted to have all the T's crossed and I's dotted sort of thing.

Don: 45:37

Well, they have. They have appeal processes, for sure, but there's been conversation that some of it might have been to delay on purpose to reduce the likelihood of martyrdom.

Ron: 45:49

No Right.

Don: 45:50

To just get such old news yeah.

Doug: 45:55

Well of martyrdom. No right to just get such old news. Yeah, well, another thing to consider with this is um, it's interesting going that way, because I actually probably see it more that way as well. Um, you would think that in that moment that he's arrested, it's time to disband and all this is gone now, right, of course, took care of the bad guy. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, good.

Doug: 46:11

No we didn't. Oh no, the cult has never fully disappeared. It may not be identified anymore as Am Shinrikyo, but we do still have a group called Aleph that continues under a softer image, but very similar color beliefs softer image, but very similar color beliefs and also the Hikari Noa, which is the Circle of Light, which is a more reformed group, distancing itself from the subway attacks. The reason that this is significant is the Japanese government still monitors these groups under the Public Security Intelligence Agency, and there are still over 1,500 registered followers that are active in Russia and Japan at this time. So they are part of the security discourse that Japan has now, because that was such a broad and publicized attack. And what's interesting is the message, although maybe not as apocalyptic and violent.

Doug: 47:08

There's one of the last things that Shoker was described as saying to the followers that weren't captured was the way that our message can continue is there should be a public way that we can speak, so we can still continue to speak in the shadows, basically indicating that the group should split into two, that one of the groups should be at the forefront saying that's not how we were at all. That was a group of extremists, where a smaller group continues to meet and the interesting thing is, of course, like between elif and hikari noa, there's not like a discernible well, is that the bad one? That's like meeting in the shadow. It's like, no, they're just two different groups that are presenting similar ideas that said, well, they had some great things and they did make that great anime an opening credit song slapped is that always the case?

Doug: 47:59

um, but yeah, they're, they're. They're not completely yes, the name is gone, but they, they do still have this presence as this group that is seeking enlightenment through yoga, deprivation, tremendous leadership, and I think that that's like the only thing that is there is. They don't have the same kind of iconic leader in the same way, but the values are still there, and it brings to question so many things I think about, like, how do you get there? And I think you know the idea of one rejected person is part of it, right Like, if somebody doesn't, okay, I'm not the Messiah and I can't be the leader of Japan as well.

Doug: 48:40

Time to go apocalyptic, I mean, that's, that's one thing, but it seems, I mean, don you kind of brought this up? We have people that are PhD students and PhD grads that are saying this has got to be it, and I find it, I guess, troublesome that we see this time and time again. I'm not the most versed on all cults, by any means, but there seems to be this through line of like, how did we get so many people to buy into this idea and then seem to do what to me seems to be objectively bad in the world. There is a logic to it, though to me seems to be objectively bad in the world.

Don: 49:12

It, it there's just, there is a logic to it, though I mean the the we were identifying and I don't think we we pointed it out too specifically. But there are a series of cults that all kind of end the same way, like Heaven's Gate, waco, jonestown, like they all kind of lead towards the same, you know conclusion. And town, like they all kind of lead towards the same, you know conclusion. And to those of us who are are thankfully not members of the cold, it seems like, like why would you choose that? Like that's a ridiculous thing to choose Right.

Don: 49:43

But, um, especially when you're talking about people who are are educated and and thoughtful and, and you know, university scientists, there there's a system that's broken in the world and you can identify that the system is broken and you can feel powerless in that system and so hope is just a delusion because there's nothing I can do. But then when you turn to, well, if the system is broken, then we should burn it down, break the system and we'll just start over, and we'll just start over Right. And Asahara actually, in addition to drawing from Christian mythology and elements of belief, he also drew from Hindu mythology and at one point actually declared himself Shiva as well as Christ. You've got to take both. But that idea in Hindu belief right, that destruction is not bad.

Don: 50:31

Like we're viewing this all as bad because we're not destruction is necessary so that new creation can come in and fill that space. And and he, he would tell his followers that we're in that last stage of Hindu time, the um Kali, the Yuga, kali, kali, yuga, I don't forget. I mean, it was the, the stage of moral decay. And so we're doing everyone a favor by bringing them, by bringing destruction, um, so that way they don't have to live in this, uh, this moral decay anymore.

Don: 51:00

So like there's a logic to it that that, if that, that I mean it makes sense. But I please, please, don't go out and adopt this belief yourself. That's not, that's not an advertisement for the goal, but like it's just a um, people say, gosh, how could, how could people have made this decision, and that's that's kind of how right it's. It's that it, it gives you a type of empowerment. It, uh, destruction feels like justice. I have a voice again.

Doug: 51:27

Yeah.

Ron: 51:28

Yeah, I do think when we talk about cults, oftentimes we sort of like victim blame the cultists and you know the people who get caught up in these things. And it does sort of like you said, don, it seems illogical, but it's not.

Ron: 51:42

And I think there's like I think everyone has a thing they kind of believe in, a cult like way, whether that's like a group of people they actually hang out with or an organization they actually join, or just a thing they think about themselves or the people in their lives, and we often most of us are fortunate enough that that thing is not a thing that leads us to cause self-harm or harm to other people, right? And then the people that get caught up in these more famous kind of tragic cult incidences just, uh, just happen to be right, I think. I don't think they think differently than any of us. They just wrong place, wrong time Sometimes.

Don: 52:21

I think that I think that it happens more frequently than we identify however because, um, it's the same thought process.

Don: 52:28

This was just in, uh, I was just reading an article about this yesterday. It's the same thought process. This was just in uh, I was just reading an article about this yesterday. It's the same thought process that allows, um, uh, white Americans to justify racism in their own behaviors and beliefs. Right, it's that? Yes, I'm voting for a system that, um, that will continue to oppress me and will take away my safety net and take away my benefits, but at least I'm not. You know this other color person.

Doug: 52:52

Yeah.

Don: 52:52

There's a belief system that you are part of the select few because you can identify with uh belonging to a larger group, even though you're not getting the benefits of of that group, because you're not. You know you're othering, you're an insider.

Don: 53:06

Right and when you're, you're part of the winning team, you're the, the, that, that the the winning remnant, and so like, even like QAnon. Right, like QAnon is a weird example. I know we try to usually steer clear of politics here, but so so, just as an academic example, it doesn't have a charismatic leader.

Don: 53:28

No right, there's no, there's no, it's just a belief system that somehow has flourished online because the online communication technology that we have today, that we didn't have in 1995, allows for that sort of you know, distributed belief system to to exist without that charismatic leader saying this is what you must do.

Ron: 53:47

I feel like it kind of did. It's just a very digital charismatic leader, Avatar of it. Q is just a sort of you can kind of Do you just a very digital charismatic avatar of it? Q is just a sort of you can kind of because there is a q?

Ron: 53:55

no, I think, I think there was once, but I think there were multiple qs. But I think the idea of q is enough, right, the idea of a leader is enough, and then that might even be the most powerful leader a cult can have, because then the members can kind of superimpose whatever qualities they want on that person.

Don: 54:12

Super dangerous too, because there's no way to turn it off.

Ron: 54:14

Yeah.

Don: 54:15

Yeah Right, Like we can, we can execute the leader of this cult, but it you can't execute when it's distributed.

Ron: 54:22

No, no, but I again, like you said, I think that's just a, it's a thinking, it's. It's a kind of thinking any of us can fall into. Thinking it's. It's a kind of thinking any of us can fall into, um, and sometimes there's a person shepherding it and sometimes there isn't right. Uh and oh, shenrikyo and the branch davidians and all these kinds of things. We're like the. I think those are easier to understand and sometimes grab our attention more because there is like such a clear villain at the center of it.

Ron: 54:52

And then we can kind of like point our fingers and wag at him and be like well, I would never fall for a guy like that, but like hey, but you you would, you would fall for other things, whether there's a guy or not. Right, right, right yeah.

Don: 55:04

So dang Well okay, okay, you've talked me out of it. I don't think any good can come from our cult uh, worship scheme. Uh, we should just do a patreon instead.

Doug: 55:22

Okay, you can stay. Then that's fine, buy us a coffee there's a link on the.

Ron: 55:23

I mean, either way, the audience is still giving us money. So that's it, and that's uh the real goal yeah, no blood though I am not going to be offering no, I won't offer blood, but you'll probably find a weird picture of me or something.

Doug: 55:35

Thank you, it reads a lot. Gentlemen, thanks for talking to me, about talking with me about this today.

Ron: 55:41

Thank you for bringing it to our attention, doug, of course.

Don: 55:44

And hey hand, cannibals, don't forget to subscribe, rate, review or be cast into the outer darkness, where there is nothing but weeping, gnashing of teeth and true crime podcasts see you later, thank you.