Don: 0:27

And, and. So that's how my grandmother's plastic flamingos wound up at the city museum.

Doug: 0:34

It makes sense. It makes sense.

Ron: 0:36

Can you start over? I don't know, have you seen them?

Doug: 0:39

I haven't but. I've heard about them yeah.

Don: 0:42

Well, hey, welcome everybody. Welcome back to the Uncannery. I'm.

Ron: 0:46

Don, I'm Ron.

Doug: 0:49

I'm Doug Still, despite many rumors Doug's still here. Even though he messed up the date of doom in the last part. Gosh just blew it royally. It's 1993 for anybody who was upset.

Don: 1:04

You only missed it by three weeks. It's not bad. No, it was just barely 93. It's like Oscar season, it's going to haunt me forever. Wow.

Doug: 1:14

As it should. Thank you, thank you. I really appreciate it.

Don: 1:17

When you get your next tattoo, you can put the date and that way you'll make up for it. How'd you know? I have a tattoo for every mistake he's ever made, because we had a whole podcast episode about your, your japanese tattoo suit that I don't have. But that's all well. Hey, everybody, welcome to the christmas season. Are y'all ready for christmas?

Ron: 1:36

you know what? I don't think it's been christmas for me until right this second like I think, you need an initiating moment yeah it's not just december 1st, I think for some people it is, but for me I need something to smash me into Christmas.

Don: 1:48

Well, that's exactly what we're going to talk about. Actually is the thing that smashes a lot of people into Christmas. But before we talk about that, their credit card bill. I think that's after.

Ron: 1:59

That's the Christmas hangover?

Don: 2:00

Yeah for sure.

Doug: 2:02

That's the big one.

Don: 2:05

But tell me about Christmas at your house. So, growing up, what was Christmas like? What did you look forward to as a kid, what was the traditions? How did it work? And yeah, well, actually wait before we do that. So, before you tell me about all this, we need to warn our uncannibals at home that we are talking about Christmas traditions today and just want to be cautious that any of our young believers are aware that this may not be the episode for you, if that's who you are.

Ron: 2:35

Exactly because some Christmas traditions can get pretty wild, Indeed.

Don: 2:38

That's exactly right. And what else would we talk about, but the wild ones here on the?

Ron: 2:42

Uncannobled. That's all we want to do, that's right. Christmas was always an awesome time for me. I'm not, I'm like, not a guy who can complain about christmas. Good, um, uh, we had, like, yeah, several traditions, but maybe like the biggest one was like, uh, we go to my dad's side of the family. Uh, the mexican side of my family would make tamales every, uh, christmas eve, which is like a pretty common tradition. Um, and you know, it would be like a whole day, like experience. You get there early in the morning and like my grandma would be grinding the masa, which is like the, the cornmeal, like filling that you put hey, you guys have tamales, you guys.

Ron: 3:19

Oh yeah, everyone knows what a tamale is, not on christmas but yeah, yeah, um, I hated them, like as a kid, like just hated, like this is not something I like doing. As a kid it was like, hey, the day before christmas you want to go do like 10 hours of work.

Ron: 3:34

Yeah, yeah, it's like you're either like cleaning the ohas, which is like the corn husk that you put the filling in, or you're spreading the masa on it, or you're filling it with the the meat, or you're watching it boil and you're talking to your like weird aunt, uh, you know about whatever, um, and then at some point like eventually the kids like we're clearly no longer good at working at this and we get to like go play with the n64 in the living room yeah that was awesome but it always culminated like late at night with we would do all the presents from that side of the family.

Ron: 4:06

It was be like a giant gift exchange. We'd fit like I don't know 25 people or something into a tiny living room and it was just like cacophonous and massive, like people were like buried under gifts. It was awesome, it was. That was like. It was like worth it. It was worth, it was worth working in the tamale kitchen just to get to the festival.

Don: 4:23

Did you ever figure out that if you would mess the tamales up on purpose, that N64 time would start earlier?

Ron: 4:29

You know what? Honestly, to this day, we still go. In a few weeks I'll be over at my grandpa's house making tamales again and, honestly, I am the guy who's the worst at it and I've always just had the position of least importance and I think I finally graduated to like the venerated position of guy who just sits outside and watches the water boil, which is exactly where I want to be, because I've just never really enjoyed the process.

Ron: 4:55

And I I do like them now, but as a kid I was like these tastes, these are terrible, like why aren't we? Making pizzas or something cool Wow.

Doug: 5:03

So ungrgrateful I love that you launched into it. Like I can't complain about christmas, I love christmas. I spent 10 hours slaving over these things. Actually, I hate christmas.

Ron: 5:14

Well, it's just like being a kid and having a dumb attitude. You know like just not knowing how well, you have it like yeah, that was like it was a fun, like my whole you know dad side of the family got together. I got to see my cousins and like you know it was like a cool thing that doesn't really happen as much anymore. We still go and do it, but there's fewer people around now, as naturally happens, and uh, you know it's, it's a different, yeah I were.

Doug: 5:38

Ours was weird. Um, we were always doing something different every christmas. It felt like I mean we've done everything from I'm going to cough Hold on just a moment, excuse me We've done everything from the traditional it's going to be Christmas ham and we're all getting together. We've gone to the movies on Christmas, we have done enchiladas for Christmas, we did like advent calendars at all the different houses and what'd you get? Like were there little toys in here or chocolates or whatever?

Doug: 6:11

One year I feel like we were kind of strange in that we were always doing something different. The only mainstay was it was like one of the only times that my mom had my mom has two sisters Like we would just get all the cousins together. It was just a guaranteed. It was going to be at one of the houses or grandma's and we were going to get all the cousins together. That was the mainstay. We were always going to be with a majority of the family. But then activities rotated. There were some years we had a tree. There were some years we didn't. Then we had the plastic tree. It's weird because we had the most all over the place Christmas experience. Yeah, it was always different every Christmas generally.

Don: 6:50

Yeah, yeah, we didn't have, uh, we didn't have a menu for Christmas. Christmas was always like, sometimes it was taco casserole and sometimes it would always be different and nothing like traditional, like we didn't do ham and turkey and nothing like traditional Christmas feasty, but, uh, um, but we always are unusual, um, uh, tradition which isn't that unusual, but I think it is in America, is our gift exchange was on Christmas Eve, so our big family party was on the 24th. Um, everybody would come over and and we'd exchange gifts then, and then that kind of freed up Christmas day, um which then, um, everybody would come over and and we'd exchange gifts then, and then that kind of freed up Christmas day, um, which then, um, uh, what's going to be? My next question is what happened on Christmas day for you all?

Ron: 7:33

Yeah, so in the morning, that's when we do the big gift exchange. That's where Santa's gifts are there. Wow, sick Cool, you know. Um, sometimes they'd be hidden from sight, you know, or?

Don: 7:44

or you know like an.

Ron: 7:45

Easter egg. I think one time our parents like, pulled the like oh wow, it looks like you didn't get that much this year, right, and we were all just sitting there like.

Ron: 7:52

Oh my God, this is the worst Christmas ever. They just wanted us to be sour, crummy kids and then suddenly they like opened the closet, like actually there's a bunch of crap in here, um. So yeah, we would always do that. And then oftentimes that's when we go to my mom's side of the family and that's when we'd have the fancy kind of like Christmas lunch. I suppose that was like ham and rolls and potatoes and stuff, but, um, yeah, we didn't have a menu so much. But another thing I love about Christmas was like that night we'd like just go get fast food or something. It was like, okay, all the fancy stuff, and my dad would just run out and like who's open jack-in-the-box? We just get crummy jack-in-the-box, or one night he like got us denny's, like to me like I, I, I.

Ron: 8:33

That was like a part of it too. It was like, hey, we had all this fancy stuff. We had a big party on christmas eve, uh, we went and had fancy brunch at uh you know, my grandma and grandparents, and then at night, it's time to just eat dill taco as you do.

Doug: 8:47

Yeah, but he drove all the way to Barstow to get the good one.

Ron: 8:52

Yeah.

Doug: 8:53

That's right. Yeah, uh, christmas day was time for presents for me as well, and that was, yeah, same thing. It was just all kinds of different traditions. Sometimes it was Christmas Eve we do with the whole family, and then it was just immediate family during Christmas day. Um, yeah, and it's interesting because, like, I haven't thought about this in a while, but generally, yeah, we always. It was something different every year and it's same thing applies to Christmas day. I'm kind of the worst person to ask about what's your big tradition? It's like seeing family, for sure, but other than that, everything was all over the place. But we would open presents on Christmas day, yeah, absolutely.

Don: 9:28

Our. So our Christmas day was focused just on gifts from Santa. And then um, which was great because, uh, um, it kind of broke the the excitement down a little bit and so the big family part, like our family, like extended family, would come. We'd have like 25, 30 people in our house on Christmas Eve and then, um, christmas day it was just the immediate family for the most part, which was nice for me for a little while. But I'm the youngest child, so when my older siblings started having children, I mean I had Santa Claus for like 45 minutes and then we had to go to my brother's house or to my sister's house for their Santa Claus.

Ron: 10:05

So yeah, the holidays get crowded right as you start to grow like definitely you know, having to go to in-laws, houses and stuff now, for I feel like for you know like once I started like dating my wife, wife, you know, and you're starting to now, instead of like your two grandparents, set of sets of grandparents you get now you got like four right like yeah, fitting like four holidays into the span of two days and there's a kind of like fun.

Ron: 10:31

Like I look back on some of those like fondly it was kind of fun, just like getting whiplashed and thrown around into as many different parties and settings as possible. There's a there's a kind of like hectic mania of the holidays which, like, is easy to complain about. But I also kind of love right. It's like that's part of what makes it unique, Like trying to shove as many like social events and things into this one section of the calendar.

Don: 10:56

It's like skydiving. It's nice to look back on this one section of the calendar.

Ron: 10:59

It's like skydiving it's nice to look back on, but not necessarily look forward to Good old Christmas.

Don: 11:06

What would happen? If well, why did Santa Claus bring you? What was the? So what was the story your parents told you? Why was Santa Claus bringing you gifts?

Ron: 11:13

Oh, he, uh, he's bringing us gifts, cause we were good, Cause we were good boys and gals, because we got good grades.

Doug: 11:19

We got to find out who's naughty or nice.

Ron: 11:22

Yeah, because we didn't cause physical harm to each other that year.

Don: 11:26

And what would happen if you were not good.

Ron: 11:29

Lumps of coal. Yeah, I'm trying to think if that ever actually happened.

Don: 11:35

If we ever like, if that threat was ever. Oh, everybody was good, except Ron.

Ron: 11:40

I want to. I don't know I might be making this up, I'll have to ask my mom, but I feel like one year one of us did get coal.

Don: 11:48

Just a coal. That's all they got.

Ron: 11:51

No, I think they must have gotten a gift, but there was one threatening piece of coal to be like. By the way, you were really skating on ice this year. I might be making that up, but I can't. I don't think my parents had the like gumption to that would cause an absolute. You know, that'd be like a that'd be like a revolt causing event, if one kid didn't receive something but the threat was there is that fair to say that was always?

Don: 12:15

was it when you were reminded of that, like I would imagine you were reminded of that?

Ron: 12:18

Like Doug, I would imagine you were reminded of that all the time. Yeah, because you were a terrible kid, as we've established. Yeah, wow. I think, I was more mild-mannered as a child.

Doug: 12:25

It was my later life that I became absolutely wild and feral. But yeah, I'm sure that I was. I remember my sister getting it for sure for behavior and I guess it's a good way. For yeah, santa's not going to give you that gift. You're probably going to have to tell the line.

Ron: 12:43

Hmm, yeah, I don't know if, like my parents talked about like you better be good, so much. I don't think that really was their tack, but like in my head I was like, oh, it's time to be good, otherwise. I remember thinking that in like June, like Santa's going to remember this if I do something bad, and I really want the airplane from tailspin this year, so like, yeah, I better stay on, stay on.

Don: 13:03

So, yeah, how, how effective was it? When did you start, uh, your your christmas planning and and when to be good and when to be bad, was it? Because for me it was, honestly, it was like thanksgiving, like as long as you're good after thanksgiving, that was like that was the window I see, christmas was like the event of the year for me I feel, like as a kid I live for christmas, yeah, because, um, I loved stuff, I loved getting stuff.

Ron: 13:29

What a consumer you are. I told 100 you're the perfect american. Really I am, and I think like I'm like ashamed about this Like to this day, I like still really get thrilled at the idea of like opening a present you know, like just receive.

Ron: 13:45

I tried to think of myself as like a very non-materialistic person. I'm not like always out there, you know, buying the newest phone or whatever. Like I wear my shoes until they are scraps of leather and stuff like that. But like I think because it was instilled in me at a young age, it was awesome to like. I used to get like cool Power Ranger action and my parents were like went all like all out. They were like crazy. They were like very devoted gift givers. They would like go to insane garage sales and stuff to find like you know, it was like, uh, you ever seen the movie?

Ron: 14:13

What's that? Arnold Schwarzenegger, Chris jingle all the way.

Doug: 14:16

Oh yeah, they were like yes, turbo man. And.

Ron: 14:19

Phil Hartman. Yeah, they were doing that like every year to find us like exactly what we wanted and they like never failed, so like they set a really high bar and uh. So all I'm saying is, yes, I was good because I wanted the stuff. Yeah.

Doug: 14:34

Clearly you were good yeah.

Don: 14:36

Well, I, I want, good, yeah, well, I, I want to show you, um, some pictures of some a couple things. So, so I got some christmas cards for you and then you mentioned a little while ago, ron, that uh, that that you need like an event, an event that like signals, hey, christmas is here, yeah, and I have pictures of that event for you. So I wondered if you could, uh could, take a look at those pictures and and describe the christmas spirit, the Christmas spirit that you are proceeding through, these Christmas cards, and then, of course, the Christmas event that is pictured there.

Ron: 15:06

Yeah, so it looks like. On this first Christmas card we have the picture of a satanic demon with a child strapped to his back. That's good so this is a very dark furry bipedal creature that has the hooves of a goat and human arms. It looks like he's holding some sort of flagellation whip Birch sticks.

Don: 15:28

It is Okay, thank you.

Ron: 15:29

He's got a long tongue. He's got a Gene Simmons tongue that's coming out of his mouth. He's got two red horns. Strapped to his back is a red barrel, with a child whose uh mouth is like in an oh, like expression and there are two children fleeing from the presence of this monster and then the background's a very pastoral white uh of course, snowy alpine.

Don: 15:54

Yeah, yeah, exactly yeah.

Ron: 15:56

So christmassy is what you're describing oh yeah, this is exactly what we did on christmas.

Don: 16:00

We stared at it ran away from goat demons.

Ron: 16:03

Yeah, yeah that sounds like a fun christmas I think I've seen this personage before. May I may I hazard a?

Don: 16:11

yeah, please, who are you looking at? Is this krampus?

Doug: 16:14

this is krampus yeah, krampus like with an au. I always heard.

Ron: 16:19

Krampus. I heard Krampus too, but I'm assuming it's Krampus with the German R Krampus.

Don: 16:26

That's the one. Do you want me to look at the next card?

Ron: 16:31

we have another Krampus Krampus and it says on the top. It says and he is again a dark goat-figured man, with an even bigger tongue this time His tongue is growing with the ages. And he's shoving a very Dutch-looking boy into another wicker sack and this boy's sister is sitting next to the sack and seems completely unfazed by the kidnapping of her brother. What a nice sister and she's holding a basket that looks like it's full of pears. Does Krampus give pears?

Don: 17:06

to good people. She must've been the good, the good child, yeah.

Ron: 17:09

Yeah, she's very happy. Why don't?

Don: 17:12

you skip ahead to the photographs and and that's describing the, the Christmas event. That kind of signals the start of Christmas season.

Ron: 17:20

Yeah, so it looks like OK. Now we're here at like a Rammstein show or a haunted house that has a man dressed as Krampus or presumably, or an animatronic Krampus, and he's got this like kind of death face mask with these big giant ibex horns coming off, and he's wielding a pitchfork and he's staring straight at the uh at the screen, and he's shouting at us.

Ron: 17:44

Here's another shot of multiple crompuses. Oh my gosh, there's a parade of crompus. Uh, here's another one with his big long tongue, and it looks like they're just marching down the street, some sort of european street yeah.

Don: 17:57

So what do you know about crampus Other than I mean, you obviously know something cause you recognize him, but uh, do you know anything about the story, what, uh, what Krampus, how he represents the Christmas spirit?

Doug: 18:08

From the very little I could be misinformed about. If you're great, you get visited by um. I don't think it's even. Santa Is by I don't think it's even.

Don: 18:19

Santa.

Doug: 18:19

Is it St Peter, st Nicholas, st Nicol Duh? Why am I thinking? Oh, it's because isn't there also a story about Black Peter.

Ron: 18:27

Black Peter, what's up with Black Peter?

Don: 18:30

That's the Dutch version.

Doug: 18:32

We'll talk about that.

Ron: 18:34

It's either St Nicholas or, if you don't do well, so he had a counterpart right. Krampus is nega Santa, anti-santa.

Don: 18:47

And what would he do if you were bad? So Santa brings you gifts and Apparently puts you in a sack.

Doug: 18:51

Yeah it looks like he's stealing you from this world. Yeah, like you get presents out of a sack or you're going to be somebody else's present, you get sacked. From the sack.

Don: 19:00

Absolutely, and he would, he would. He would kidnap you and take you to hell and then eat you at some point.

Ron: 19:08

Oh, so you never came back?

Don: 19:09

No, yeah, the carpenter took you Now to warn you like if you weren't bad enough to be kidnapped. That was what the bird sticks were for.

Doug: 19:19

He would just beat you, oh nice. So sometimes just a light beating.

Don: 19:22

Yeah, if you were only a little bad, then you just got the beating, and if you were really bad, then you just disappeared.

Ron: 19:27

So very different from modern times where if you're a little bit bad, you just get three less gifts, right?

Don: 19:34

And a warning call yeah, yeah, so, okay's, he's taking kids to hell yeah, yeah, so he is from hell, he is, he is a hell spawn. Um, it's not really clear where he comes from, but he does have access to it. One other thing, one other detail you'll notice on uh, on those cards is uh is, uh, he is. He is bound with chains, so he does.

Ron: 20:00

Yeah. Yeah, he had shackles or something. Yeah, except when they let him free in the holiday season.

Don: 20:06

So he seems to be a demon like creature, but is controlled by or is, is subjugated to the Christian will. That's what the change represented. So he will, that's what the change represented. So he.

Ron: 20:21

He does take you to hell because that's where bad children belong, apparently. Uh, before they die, just like you're so bad, we're not even gonna wait. Yeah, just taking you now.

Doug: 20:27

You'll be going there and you're gonna be eaten. Sure? Can we just talk about how extreme this is from a lump of coal, like like lump of coal instead of presence. How about? You're going to hell and you're going to be eaten, wow.

Don: 20:40

That's actually one of the questions I had for you is why such an extreme difference? So where is Krampus from? Do we know? Do you guys know that?

Ron: 20:50

Oh, not hell.

Don: 20:52

Well, I mean not. I mean where is the tradition?

Ron: 20:54

Where does the tradition of?

Don: 20:55

Krampus originate.

Ron: 20:56

It looks some sort of Northern European, some weird winter people.

Don: 21:00

I was doing more than the winter people, the weird winter. This looks like some weird winter people. It's the Nordics. Yeah, it's like black metal Only people who don't see the sun can come up with this.

Doug: 21:11

If you thought black metal was scary, wait till you hear about Krampus, yeah.

Don: 21:16

It is not quite that far north. They've got a different monster in, uh, in the true Scandinavian. This is uh, is is uh higher elevation, germany, germany.

Ron: 21:26

Austria.

Don: 21:26

Switzerland is yeah.

Ron: 21:30

Gromvus Kampus.

Doug: 21:34

I just wanted to play along. It's good to have you.

Ron: 21:38

So how long ago do they have this guy?

Doug: 21:40

though Is he like?

Ron: 21:42

all the way back? Does he predate Christ?

Don: 21:48

Well, that's an excellent question. Looking at him, looking at the iconography of him, what would you say?

Doug: 21:53

I mean, does he look Christian?

Ron: 21:55

He looks pagan, he looks very pagan yeah there's a lot of parallels here to like uh interpretations of satan right. They got the the bipedal goat anatomy he's got the horns on his head. He's all black the tongue.

Don: 22:08

Yeah, yeah, yeah, satan's got a tongue I meant the long tongue the long tongue is a feature of the icon spend a Milton spent a lot of time writing about Satan's tongue, so is this so is Krampus informed by imagery of Satan, or is Satan informed by? Imagery of Krampus, or are they?

Ron: 22:31

simultaneous, simultaneous.

Doug: 22:34

Interesting.

Don: 22:36

But well, before we talk about, about the, the, the origins of, of Krampus, let's can we talk first about why he needs to exist. So imagine we say no, of course.

Ron: 22:50

Yeah, thanks.

Don: 22:52

Uh, what if? Uh, so. So the idea of like Santa's gifts, to go back to our childhoods, right Is, is, there's a little bit of coercion there, right Is, as a child, you must behave, and young Ron would behave so he could get his tailspin airplanes.

Don: 23:08

Um and and so it was a way to like extend the, uh, the threat of Christmas throughout the year. Right, and you need to be good or else you won't get your, your present. Um, for, for the, the threat of krampus is a little bit more serious, because if you're not good, it's not that you don't get the gift that you want, it's that you will disappear. Yeah, and apparently your sister won't care because she'll just be distracted by her pears.

Ron: 23:32

Yeah, yeah so there's like an echo here of like is this like a children's version of like sermons or something you know like? Because it seems to me there's always been a clear like kind of threat in a lot of Christian doctrine right.

Ron: 23:51

Past a certain point right, like I'm kind of fuzzy on this, but like the existence of hell or the threat of hell, has not always been like a component of Christianity, right, um, and I feel like somewhere in the middle ages, european Christianity it's like really gloms onto this idea of hell right as a punishment, right.

Ron: 24:11

So, um, there's a, there's always been a sort of immortal reward or an immoral punishment, uh, according to a lot of like church doctrine. Uh, for adults, right, but is this a way to like interpret it for children, to sort of dumb it down for kids, or you know, or like like, hey, you better act this way or else you'll die yeah.

Doug: 24:29

Yeah, You're going to hell regardless but you can either go fast, yeah, yeah.

Ron: 24:34

Now it's a goat man taking you there Is that part of it. It seems like a key component to me.

Don: 24:39

Oh, I think that's an interesting postulation. The truth is, though, is that the Krampus threat was actually invented for adults. Oh, really, and it has later been translated, so it's a later evolution of the Krampus legend that it's for children. So the early threat was was for adults to uh to behave.

Ron: 25:02

When do we have like a? Kind of like when is the first Krampus threat?

Don: 25:07

So 1375 is the first recorded instance of masked figures dressed as a, as a Krampus, like uh uh creature wandering the um the streets.

Ron: 25:18

Oh, so these photos we were seeing.

Don: 25:20

This is always those are not from 1375.

Ron: 25:22

Yeah, they're awfully high def, but so this has always been a tradition. People always mask up and walk around town. Not always since 1375.

Don: 25:29

Oh sure, sure.

Ron: 25:30

Right, that's basically always.

Don: 25:33

It's 1,300 years after Christ.

Don: 25:36

So one of the things we were talking about is whether this is a pagan origin story, and it is something that people believe is pagan origin because of the iconography, but the documentation tells us that it's first recorded in 1375. And then, interestingly, in the 1582 is the first time we get a church, a document, that says, hey, we should stop doing this Krampus thing Cause he looks like the devil. Oh, so that's like 200 years, though. So there's 200 years of of this legend growing and the tradition growing and uh and and Krampus existing as this this wintertime threat, until the church stumps in and says, hey, maybe we shouldn't do this Cause it just scares the kids, and uh, and looks like the devil.

Ron: 26:21

And then like some, the Pope was like no, actually, we should make it for the kids. Don't you remember this one? You?

Doug: 26:28

better not pout. I'm telling you why Krampus is going to drag you to hell.

Don: 26:34

It just brings back the childhood when you sing that thing. That's beautiful yeah.

Doug: 26:38

Was it this? This? Uh, shut this down immediately if it's going to be too much of a rabbit trail. But is it? Is it Beelzebub?

Ron: 26:45

Is that the he's the Lord of flies.

Doug: 26:47

Is he the one that's like featured as like the goat kind of face, that's like sitting cross-legged with like the finger sign and everything else.

Ron: 26:54

No, that's um. Who is that? I was just reading about Satanism.

Don: 27:01

What are the odds? Let me tell you what you're getting for Christmas.

Doug: 27:04

Pain.

Ron: 27:06

No, that's. It's not Asmodeus, but I don't think that's Beelzebub. Beelzebub is like the oldest. There's a lot of like. I'm looking this up. There's an evolution of Satan right and like the modern Satan is a very Miltonian Satan. The fallen angel Lucifer. But, beelzebub, is this in the Miltonian universe, right, yeah, he kind of throws them all and he makes them like side characters right.

Ron: 27:26

But like I think Beelzebub is almost like an Old Testament, oh yeah, like he even predates maybe the Abrahamic religions. It's a very kind of like Mesopotamian version of like a most artistic depictions, very much like a fly You're right, yeah, yeah.

Doug: 27:42

Let's just look up goat demon. Anyway, continue. I'm sorry guys, all right.

Don: 27:47

Um, but the uh, the the origin of the tradition is is really obscure. So we don't know why. Somebody sat down and said, hey, we sat down and said, hey, we need a goat creature that's going to threaten to kidnap people if they don't. But, um, but if you think about the uh, like what typically happens in winter time, what's the tradition, what's the we were talking about? Uh, if you're good, santa brings you stuff, stuff cool things do you guys know where that came from?

Ron: 28:15

uh, is it just like a hey, is it the old better? To reward than punish.

Don: 28:24

But why does Santa Claus? Where did Santa Claus even come from?

Ron: 28:29

Oh heaven.

Don: 28:30

Yeah, Is he a sort of?

Ron: 28:31

did Santa Claus used to come?

Don: 28:32

from heaven.

Ron: 28:34

Is he a righteous angel? If Krampus is from hell, I don't really know. No Well, he's Saint Nick, right. He was't really know.

Don: 28:40

No well, he's saint nick, right we, he was once an angel, now he's a chubby guy yeah, that's it saint nicholas is right, he actually was a guy like a real man. A real man. Yeah, there was a real saint nicholas, um that, uh, that lives in the fourth century, is he?

Ron: 28:57

also german no turkish oh sick, yeah.

Don: 29:01

born in the city century. Is he also German? No, turkish. Oh, sick yeah. Born in the city of Myra, which is in Turkey today and became a bishop and died.

Ron: 29:12

Never gave a gift once in his life.

Doug: 29:13

It was good to have him Hated by all.

Don: 29:17

The stories about him, though, actually is where some of our traditions come from. So let me tell you one of the most famous stories of St Nicholas' life and again, this is the first documented version of the story comes from the 800s, and St Nicholas died sometime in the 330s. So we've got a little bit of a gap between death and these stories. We've got a little bit of a gap between death and these these stories, but one of them has to do with a father who had three daughters and was was lamenting the fact that, because of the local traditions in Myra, turkey at that time, daughters could only be married if they had a dowry. And he didn't have any money to have a dowry for his daughters and apparently the only other option was to sell them into slavery or prostitution. So the way the story story goes. So he's very sad because his daughters are going to be prostitutes, and uh, and he wakes up one morning and there's a sack of gold in his house magic.

Don: 30:10

Yeah, this is also the convergence of the leprechaun origin no, because the gold arrived, because saint nicholas uh rounded it up and then, depending upon the version of the story, he either threw it over the wall into the house or, in some versions of the story, he dropped it down the chimney and in some versions of the story, it landed in a shoe, or in some versions of the story, it landed in a sock that was hanging by the fire to dry um so it's like batman begins so, uh, so a few nights later, another soccer goal showed up, so he had a dowry for his second daughter and, uh, the old man.

Don: 30:50

And so again, like, did you guys have this experience? So on the third night, the guy, the old man or the father, decides he's going to wait up and and see if he can catch who is delivering this, these gifts, and St Nicholas, or not St Nicholas Nicholas at that time?

Ron: 31:07

regular Nick.

Don: 31:08

Bishop Nicholas drops the the gold in the chimney and the father runs out and catches him and shoots him.

Ron: 31:18

What are you doing on my property?

Don: 31:22

Nicholas makes him promise not to, uh, not to, reveal his identity. So it's, it says sort of the origin of that secret identity of the gift giver of remaining anonymous as a gift giver, um delivering the gifts through the chimney or or dropping them in a shoe, or things like that. Um, so a lot of the the traditions that we associate with Christmas are coming from this story of St Nicholas.

Doug: 31:45

Yeah.

Don: 31:45

Yeah, and so because it starts with three sacks of gold. One of the images that becomes associated with St Nicholas as people start to revere him is three gold orbs. So that's actually where orange is at Christmas. So you, sometimes you get orange in your stocking.

Doug: 32:03

Yeah.

Don: 32:03

Yeah, it's because of that, uh, that three gold orbs that are associated with Nicholas, which represent the three sacks of gold that he um delivered to.

Ron: 32:11

So, yeah. And so when does St Nicholas like, become like, when did? When does it spread? When does it leave? Turkey, perfect 1087. I'll tell you the exact date.

Don: 32:26

Yeah, because in Turkey, the, the Muslim empire, starts to expand, and so what was a Christian area where, where Nicholas was the Bishop, starts to to be overrun with with the Muslim empire, and so they actually transport Nicholas's remains from Turkey to Bari, italy, and that's actually where they remain today. And so, because of that, that's where the story starts to spread further north, because, as far as we can tell, sailors either involved in that transport or Spanish sailors who worked out of the port of Bari started to spread that story across Europe, and so the stories of Nicholas being a protector of children, of Nicholas being a gift giver, that started to spread and became associated with his feast day, which is December 6th.

Ron: 33:18

Okay, so all these sailors are like, hey, whose bones we got in here? And they're like, actually they're the bones of a very generous guy, exactly.

Don: 33:27

And so the gift-giving traditions started on December 6th, so you would exchange gifts with your family, and St Nicholas would visit you on December 6th to reward you for your good behavior throughout the year, so he was like a ghost a ghost, but just a spirit. Yeah, yeah, Right, so um and so eventually.

Ron: 33:51

Obviously, this proliferates across Europe.

Don: 33:53

It does and at some point.

Ron: 33:54

Someone's like he needs a villain.

Don: 33:56

Well the thing is is what's interesting about Krampus is like looking at those images um, he looks like a villain but he's he's actually a companion, right? Yeah, yeah, yeah, right. And so Nicholas turns into the gift giver, the rewarder of good behavior, and Krampus is the, the punisher for bad behavior.

Ron: 34:16

So they they're a team. They are.

Don: 34:18

They're the yin and the yang you can't have one without the other, right Right, right so did you find your demon?

Doug: 34:25

It was Baphomet.

Ron: 34:26

Yeah.

Don: 34:26

Yeah, yeah, baphomet was the guy.

Doug: 34:28

It doesn't look like, from what I'm seeing, there's any connection. So yeah, that's it.

Don: 34:33

Hmm, so the spread of the cult of Nicholas right, we think, is because of the sailors leaving Italy and then spreading further north. Actually, there's some I don't know if it's archaeological, it's anthropological evidence of that. So in the Netherlands, do you know where St Nicholas arrives from each Christmas with your exotic gifts?

Doug: 34:58

Antarctica.

Ron: 34:59

No, the other one, it's a complete opposite the art stick funny the north the north pole is where santa claus comes from yeah

Don: 35:07

yeah, in the netherlands, he comes from spain oh, that's sick closer to what he's been, he's been um. Uh, he's been vacationing there yeah, or he's working on his tan is spain just so exotic to the netherland the netherlandese mind it was.

Don: 35:25

It's the second. So, uh, it is exotic, it has. It's part of the the trade routes that that the netherlands were involved in. So, uh, you could get a lot of produce from africa and produce from from the Southern part of of Europe, and, uh, and they came that way, which is why in the Netherlands, they came up with a different companion for St Nicholas that also had a similar role, not quite as scary as Krampus, cause he doesn't have the, the horns and the scary face, but, um, that you guys know about, zwarte Pieter.

Ron: 35:56

Yeah, zwarte peter, yeah, black peter. Yeah, is that just because, like they found black?

Don: 36:04

people in spain like, because that was that europe's introduction. The moors in invaded spain. Ah yeah, and so um, so yeah, there's. And the dutch were also involved, because of where the timing of when um zwarte peter uh uh is invented is in the 1800s or ands, and the Dutch are involved in the slave trade to the North America continent.

Don: 36:26

So the idea of servitude, the idea of the subjugation of the Moors coming from Spain, those all so Black Peter is a servant of St Nicholas, but the same idea that he's there to punish the misbehaviors, but in a little bit more of a Loki type jokester figure.

Don: 36:47

There's a tremendous amount of like psychosocial something going on there right For sure, and they've struggled with it actually because of the iconography and the representation and the racial issues that are involved there. So there's Black Peter apologists that say, oh no, he's not. It's not a racial blackness, he's just sooty because he has to crawl down the chimneys. So they've started to change the way that he's presented in public. So it's not a full black face, it's people just smearing ash on themselves, things like that to look dirty as opposed to look like a racial difference.

Ron: 37:24

Definitely less problematic to go with the hell demon who takes kids. Like honestly you can't touch that. There's nothing to have to change.

Don: 37:33

The one thing I think is interesting about the Black Peter story is there's a, a companion story in france. Uh. So in france, uh, the character is named per frotar and uh, which means father whipper, also presented with the dirty face, but, um, not again. It does coincide more with that second idea that the of it being a laborer, a lower class servant of St Nicholas. But his origin story is kind of interesting too. Would you like to hear that one Of course.

Don: 38:08

So it also goes back to a miracle that's attributed to St Nicholas during his lifetime, so back in the 400s. Apparently, there was either a butcher or an inn innkeeper two different versions of the story who decided to kidnap three boys um, and again different versions of the story either was going to rob them and and wound up murdering them, or was going to sell them for pork and wound up murdering them.

Doug: 38:36

Nothing, boys make for great pork boy bacon, the other other white meat um well, you know, uh, jonathan swift would disagree.

Don: 38:47

But um.

Don: 38:47

He says the boy meat is bad but uh, according to the story, the uh the butcher actually put them in pickle, like pickled them in a barrel, and uh and saint nicholas found out about this and uh and came to shake his figure and uh, miraculously resurrected the boys. So the boys that had been murdered, peril and uh and St Nicholas found out about this and uh and came to shake his figure and uh, miraculously resurrected the boys. So the boys that had been murdered, uh, st Nicholas brought back to life. And so in France this uh, um, the, the character of um pair frotter is uh, is that innkeeper or that butcher? So part of his penance for having murder uh the boys, is that he now is the companion to saint nicholas, uh and uh and he collects or or threatens the uh the misbehaviors so there's like a lot of complex justice like, or ideas of justice sort of tied into the origins of many of these kinds of traditions, right and and all these of these.

Ron: 39:40

this isn't just Alpine Germany now. It's like lots of these people have, like you got your St Nicholas and then you've also got the guy who does the dirty work or represents the opposite, the stick versus the carrot kind of approach, right?

Don: 39:53

Well, and what's interesting is, the further west you move, the lighter it gets right. So, krampus is pretty, al, alpine, right swiss, uh, alps, the, uh, the northern germany, that part, and then as you move to the netherlands it just becomes uh, you know somebody, who's, who's a portuguese kid.

Ron: 40:11

Yeah, it's gonna play a trick on you.

Don: 40:13

and the same thing when you get to france, like it's just like, yes, you should not misbehave, but like the worst that will happen to you is you get hit with a stick right Um, as opposed to being drugged to hell and and served as hors d'oeuvres.

Ron: 40:24

When does coal show up? Is that a? Is that like an industrial revolution? English? Thing.

Don: 40:28

Uh, no, actually.

Don: 40:29

Uh, it's part of the uh the um pair frotter uh brings brings the coal oh yeah, yeah, um, there's another creature in the Alpine regions that is a little bit more serious. So, so, if we can keep this spectrum, I. So the further East we go, the more serious the consequences seem to be. In the further West we go, the less serious they seem to be. So let me introduce you to Frau Perchta. Have you heard of Frau Perchta? No, so, frau Perchta is a is a witch. No, so Frau Perchta is a is a witch. Yeah, and a winter witch. A winter witch who, uh, who visits uh houses, and if you are industrious and and well-behaved, she will leave you small gifts like coins, things like that, and uh, and if you have not finished your spinning for the year if your house is not kept up or your house is not cleaned.

Don: 41:20

Uh, she will wait until you're asleep and then slit your belly open and remove your internal organs and fill you with straw.

Doug: 41:28

Can we go back to krampus so that's worse than being dragged to hell and then served as hors d'oeuvres. I'm not not sure, I mean, it's definitely more graphic. I can at least tell you that.

Ron: 41:42

I want to see like the five-year-old kid who, like, takes the sheets off his brother's bed and finds him stuffed with straw there. It's like the godfather.

Doug: 41:50

Yeah, yeah, yeah. It's like how far east are we talking? Where is it central to Switzerland?

Don: 41:56

Switzerland and same Germany in switzerland, switzerland and and same germany there's an overlap in in the crampus legend there. So okay, yeah, yeah so. But my question is why? Why are we more? Why are the consequences so much more serious for misbehavior the further east we go and less serious as we go further west? So it's kind of a geography question if, if you oh, something about the Danube river.

Doug: 42:25

Um, okay, so.

Ron: 42:29

Easter gets more mountainous right, like like you know, that's not the lowlands, and and and that's it.

Don: 42:34

France is nice and pleasant, and so unpleasant places.

Ron: 42:37

So what's it like in the wintertime? Oh, lots of snowboarding.

Doug: 42:41

Yeah, Brutal brother Tourism, absolutely yeah, bad, bad, right Right.

Don: 42:46

Harsh, yeah, and so life in the Alpine regions in the wintertime is a very precarious balance of food that you've already stored because you can't grow anymore and there's nothing really to hunt because all the animals are hibernating or have moved. There's a little bit, but it's like, basically, you're just waiting out the season until it thaws. So, as a community, if we are going to make it through this together, we have a set of norms that we have to sort of succeed in establishing. And if one of succeed in establishing and if one of us breaks those norms, one of us eats too much food, what's going to happen to the whole community? We're all going to die, we're going to ruin it yeah so, so, krampus, okay.

Ron: 43:32

So we need people to follow these rules right, and because we can't trust them to do it, uh, innately, because people are dumb and selfish beasts, so we need to threaten them with a creature of dark imagination that's colder and more vicious and so are we saying that at some point?

Ron: 43:52

this then um morphs into like stories for children in order to instill at them in a very early age. Like yo, there are ways you have to act if you're going to be a functioning member of this society, of this in group Right and uh, otherwise you go to hell.

Don: 44:08

Right and and that start starts to happen in the 1700s.

Don: 44:13

So it's when we get farther away from the medieval period where life is not so precariously balanced between like we're going to make it, we're not going to make it, um and uh uh, but now we still have these norms of behavior that we want to to teach our children and and to maintain. So the threat of cramp is the threat of Frau Perchta. Um, it just shifts from adults to children. The Frau Perchta that, like they would literally have. So she's supposed to visit houses during the 12 days of Christmas, so between Christmas day and Epiphany on January 6th, and they would like have processions. Like they would have women dress up with scary masks on and they would come to your house and they would examine your spinning and they would examine your house to see if it was clean and if it was not, they would put a big old smear on your door of ashes. So that way everybody knew that you were the house. That was not uh, not following the norms.

Ron: 45:05

It's like shame is a key component to hold on to your bellies.

Doug: 45:10

Yeah, that's right yeah, so yeah, it's funny, just con, uh, the contrast of like sunny california and the worst thing that can happen is like it's less presence and one of them's cold.

Ron: 45:21

Right here we are ripping people open and stuffing them with straw, so it seems like it shifted again Right Like, at some point, these traditions, sort of like they're no longer contained by geography, right, they travel, they get dispersed and they wind up in America, right Like, and I I'm wondering, like, do they still serve the same role? Are we still trying to instill values in children through our use of of Santa Claus?

Ron: 45:50

uh in the in the original German right Uh or uh like. Are we trying to like? Are those the same values we're instilling them, or have those changed Right Like what what? What does Santa Claus teach kids today?

Doug: 46:03

Well, certainly not the unbelievably negative side of you ate too much fruit and we're going to cut you open with the counter to that. So I mean, I think it's back to the beginning again, right Of being good in general. I think it's just been more generalized and now it's just whatever the parent decides in terms of behavior. Um, that's, that's kind of what they're enforcing is like you've been a good little boy or little girl, so you will get the gifts that you want. I think it's been distilled, it seems.

Don: 46:33

So but but our community like I think the point you're getting to run is our communities still have this need to maintain some, some type of social norm, like we have to agree on a contract of how we get along with each other. And wouldn't it be more effective if, instead of this lump of coal that never materializes because, right, if the threat was, you're going to get dragged?

Ron: 46:53

to hell. Yes, that's what I want to bring back the fear of an early, immortal torment.

Don: 47:02

Merry Christmas.

Ron: 47:03

I don't, I don't think, I don't think the Santa Claus thing does instill.

Doug: 47:07

No.

Ron: 47:08

Like good behavior anymore, Like I said, like I don't even think as a kid, like yeah, we were supposed to be good, but I think it was just because, like, maybe I will get a less cool gift, but it was never like and, to be fair, like I don't think I was like a very I don't think frequently is like oh, I'm about to do a bad thing, but wait a minute.

Ron: 47:27

Let's remember Santa Claus. I shouldn't do that bad thing because I want to be. I don't think it like had that much control over my decision making as a kid and I don't know if it does anymore anymore. But I do think there's something to the. The elf on the shelf.

Don: 47:40

There's a key in the elf on the shelf. There you go he's the new.

Ron: 47:43

There's like he's uh, he's the surveillance state, like isn't that kind of what we're? There's like there's still something being communicated to kids, but I don't know if it's like be good, I mean, on face value it is, but I don't know if that's kids. What, what kids actually learn from it.

Don: 48:00

Do you know how far back Elf on a Shelf goes?

Ron: 48:02

Not when I was a kid. It sounds to me like eight years or something 2005.

Don: 48:07

Okay, okay, that's close, almost 19 years, yeah, so yeah, what was that?

Ron: 48:12

The first YouTube video of an Elf on a Shelf.

Don: 48:16

It's a children's book that was self-published in 2005.

Ron: 48:18

With the intention of like hey, parents, this is a trick, or is it just like a fun story that some wacko was like, oh, and I'm going to bring this into reality?

Don: 48:31

The story that I know is that it was a children's book to tell a story about their family's tradition about the elf, and then it turned into this commercial success. It just became the runaway hit. And then it turned into this commercial success that just became the runaway hit, but all right. So we agree, though, that we have to have some type of reward system and threat system to instill our children with these values that we want to.

Ron: 48:54

No, I disagree, you disagree, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Because here's the, here's the OK. Sure, it's fun as a kid, let's say it works right, oh, being good. But then you've always got the turn right, uh, which is you're eight, nine, twenty five and you realize there is no santa, there is no krampus. Yeah, there is no. Like the, the punishments and the reward systems are all fake. What is like? Isn't that going to dismantle that, that idea? Or are we saying we've been so indoctrinated? Those values have been instilled in us they now survive the realization that, uh, this story is a fantasy but then why do we still have them?

Don: 49:32

like they must be working or else like they would have died off right, these are. These are thousand year old traditions.

Ron: 49:37

I'm gonna say coca-cola, that polar bears out there? Yeah, because I think, like these traditions fulfill a different. These are thousand year old traditions.

Doug: 49:41

I'm going to say Coca-Cola that polar bears out there.

Ron: 49:43

Cause I think, like these traditions fulfill a different role, at least in America today. Right, like I think Christmas is like such a big holiday because, like we don't have that many big cultural shared holidays Right, there aren't that many that we can kind of all like get together and say, like the time of year is different. Right, like most of our holidays are single days. They don't really change the way we interact with each other. They don't, like, you know, we don't get to change the decor in our houses for fourth of july, you know, or something like. And so I think some people do.

Ron: 50:16

I suppose so, I suppose so but like is fourth of of July, like a month long celebration.

Don: 50:20

No, and there's not like a, a, a manner to behave around the 4th of July. Like you're supposed to be, you know wintertime is supposed to be about goodwill and about right.

Doug: 50:29

Yeah, and family and coming together and all this season the holidays, yeah, you know like. So yeah, it is kind of.

Ron: 50:37

Starting from Halloween until New Year's Eve, it's like an exciting and different time of year, unless you're Disneyland, then it's August through February.

Doug: 50:45

Absolutely.

Ron: 50:47

Absolutely so I think I don't know. I feel like Santa and that tradition is just sort of become a sort of like well, that's what you do on Christmas Santa, whether or not you intend to use it to instruct your children. There's like I'm thinking that, like when I sort of found out Santa wasn't real and then, like my parents brought me in to like the Santa club, like okay, so I'm the oldest of six and so I was like the first one, and they're like okay, but now you get to be a part of the continue, you get to make this holiday magical for your siblings. You're part of the conspiracy. Yes, yes, yeah, exactly. So then I would help assemble gifts and I would wrap them and I would, you know, bite the cookie on the shelf. They were just using you for labor, but it is fun to see kids, you know, think the world is a little bit more magical than it is right.

Ron: 51:38

Yep, I want to say there's like a kind of benefit in that whether it's I don't know if it's just like parental selfishness that like, look, I managed to do something nice for my children, right, which isn't selfish, but I mean like um would have a sort of like um motivation to make them feel good, Right, but the punishment part seems gone, like I don't, I can't, I did. Did you know anyone who received?

Doug: 52:07

coal for Christmas, or who got totally shafted by Santa. I did know one, but the parents were particularly brutal.

Don: 52:12

Okay, yeah, um but that was it. That was it? Um, no, generally, no, no, I didn't either. Well, there actually is a uh, a place where, um, it does still happen, like the, the punishment if you go to bavaria and you go to austria, you could, they, they still on. So it's december 5th, is the start of the christmas season. That the event that we're talking about is called uh, kramp, krampus Nacht, uh and uh, and that's what those photos are from. So, uh, there there are big processions of Krampus through the uh, the town, and they carry their birch sticks and and chains and other weapons and uh and threaten children and yay, it's Christmas, um of that. Yeah, and speaking of the uh you're talking about, nobody gets punished like they do, like uh, in those events, like they, they beat people in the in the audience with their sticks now I'm starting to think this is more about exercising some sort of societal frustration towards children.

Don: 53:12

This is for the adults there's actually places where uh, as you, if you want to be a spectator for the event, you, uh, you, you buy um wristbands and you can get different wristbands for different levels of engagement with the krampus a no boo, so kind of like a yeah, like a no boo at at non-scary farm so you can have the. You know the krampus will look at you and that's that's it. And all the way up to they will beat you with stakes I want the wristband that drags me to hell.

Don: 53:44

Give me the full thing Show me Baphomet so the other thing that you mentioned earlier about the iconography, the way that Krampus looks, and one thing that is a little bit confusing is he does look pagan in origin.

Ron: 54:00

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Don: 54:03

And it's been postulated that maybe he's a hangover from some pre-Christian paganism or Norse traditions or things like that, and that comes from our good friends Jakob and Wilhelm Grimm.

Doug: 54:19

Oh, yeah, they're brothers, aren't they?

Don: 54:22

They are, and uh they, part of this movement called uh uh, romantic nationalism, uh, wanting to preserve the true German folklore right. So that's why they, uh, that's why they, they created their, um, their collection of folktales right.

Don: 54:39

As part of the tradition to maintain the traditions of of Germany, um, and they looked at the traditions of Krampus and they said, well, look at him, of course he's pagan and that, like that's all the foundation that it took Um. So for about a hundred years there was this theory that, uh, that that Krampus is is related to Norse traditions and Odin and the wild hunt and things like that, that Odin would lead a wild hunt in the winter across the skies of the ghost animals. But in the 20th century they've gone back and they looked at those records and the dates that I gave you are the first recorded mentions of Krampus, so 1300s.

Ron: 55:22

Yeah.

Don: 55:23

So, uh, so it's clearly within the medieval Christian church that these traditions are developing and now they're being maintained. So that's my, my question. Like you're, you're talking about Santa and we maintain the Santa traditions here in the United States and they're different than the St Nicholas traditions, and there's reasons for all that, which we can talk about some other day. But my question is why are we still maintaining the Krampus scary Halloween Christmas in Bavaria?

Ron: 55:54

Yeah, like you said, there probably is.

Ron: 56:15

I'm sure for many of those communities there is a facet of national identity or local identity tied up to those right, like in an increasingly globalized world, right it like sort of semi-local traditions you know, like growing up at your school, in your community, in your town. That you're like this is what separates me from other people. These are the things we did, kind of like we were talking at the beginning. These are the traditions we had on Christmas, right, and a lot of those are shared right, so I can. The traditions we had on christmas, right, and a lot of those are shared right, so I can just see these places being like. This is what we do. We do krampus, things like whether or not it fulfills the original purpose of the of that um folk tale doesn't mean we don't want to do it.

Don: 56:51

It's fun, right, you're in bavaria we still eat our kids put them in a barrel and tickle them yeah and I wish like. So I think it it for me. It tells me two things. It well, it tells me one thing and leads to another conclusion. So the one thing it tells me is that, for the most part, humans will be good under threat yeah, yeah, 100 right right like like the. The motivation to do good for good's sake is not our strong suit.

Ron: 57:25

I don't know if that's true entirely. I think it's that living in a society is more complex than it seems right. So, like I think, most people don't actively seek to do harm to other people in their community or are so selfish that they would lead to societal collapse or something like that. But you do have to put certain instincts aside in order to function really well, and it's especially a precarious society like an Alpine German society during the wintertime.

Don: 57:58

Right.

Ron: 57:59

And so, yeah, threats do seem to work. We've talked about this with the justice thing, right? Right like, does prison work? Right and whether or not it works. There seems to be a strong perception that it does right and I think well.

Don: 58:13

so threat of like being drugged to hell or being slid open and filled with straw, like those are kind of extreme. But I think that that in my lifetime anyways, there was, there was a belief that there were certain societal lines that public figures, for example, could not cross. Like you couldn't, you know you couldn't have have had an affair and be president.

Don: 58:37

You couldn't drive a tank Right, and you can't you couldn't say certain things to your neighbors or say certain things about other people, like whether or not you thought them like there was still a, an expected public decorum that I feel like was sort of under threat. Like if you did that, like there was a, there was a, it was a violation of the social norm, and I feel like we've kind of we've moved away from that idea that we have social norms that have to be maintained.

Ron: 59:04

Or the social norms are in flux, right, they're in conversation again, like what are the norms that are important and which are the ones that are not or should be?

Don: 59:13

I hope so. I feel like they're not in conversation.

Ron: 59:16

I feel like it's evaporating, but I wish that they would come back yeah so, uh, so we need a krampus to come and threaten people to behave so you do think that's what's happening in bavaria, like these communities are maintaining a certain level of social norm, as represented or symbol uh, symbolized by the existence, the continued existence of the krampus and not because I I think that that the they're wandering around the streets saying, oh, I better behave or else, you know, this demon figure will come and eat me.

Don: 59:43

But it's just, it's a reminder that, hey, there is a social contract that we all must maintain in order to have a society that functions. It's an embodiment of that contract and, yeah, it's a scary one, but at least it is one that exists scary one, but at least it is one that exists.

Doug: 1:00:02

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, I like that I think that's a very I agree succinct idea all right.

Ron: 1:00:04

Yeah, that's how we need a an american krampus absolutely all right, we'll work on that next uh, yeah, maybe I'm sure wall street can cook up something.

Doug: 1:00:16

I mean it was enough for me feigning ignorance about Antarctica and the Brothers Grimstead to get.

Ron: 1:00:21

Ron, side-eye, don't you dare confuse the poles.

Don: 1:00:28

Well, I thank you guys for a good conversation today. I wish you the best of luck as we enter the Christmas season. That Krampus and Frau Perchta stay away from your houses.

Ron: 1:00:40

Yeah, be safe out there everyone.

Doug: 1:00:42

Merry Christmas Maybe. Thank you,