Don: 0:28

So. So that's how the raccoon got the sandwich and I got banned from the park.

Ron: 0:32

That's insane.

Doug: 0:34

I never knew that about you, yeah well, that's how you get holes in your socks, folks.

Don: 0:38

Hey everybody, Welcome back to the Uncannery. I'm Don. I'm.

Doug: 0:42

Ron, this is Doug here.

Don: 0:44

And gosh, you guys, guys, it's so good to see you.

Ron: 0:46

It's been forever yeah, it has been a very long time, at least two hours.

Don: 0:50

Yeah, I was it was three, I think last time.

Doug: 0:53

Yes, yes, yes parting is such sweet sorrow and not sweet enough oh well voters out there uh listeners, yeah, well, voters listeners. We're polling right now to see whether it's sweet or not.

Don: 1:12

That wasn't very nice, ron, that doesn't seem fair.

Ron: 1:16

No, it's just funny. The humor is when you're mean.

Doug: 1:22

Depends on where it's coming from.

Don: 1:30

Well, speaking of fair, I was wondering, I wanted to ask you I start us off tonight about your sense of fairness and and have you ever exercised or experienced one of those moments where, like justice just came through for you, like you knew that was a time when the stars aligned and the world was right and your good works had paid off, or whatever, and and justice was there I think I distinctly remember some childhood arguments when I finally was starting to see behind the curtain on parenting, and there was a few things so like at three.

Doug: 2:02

Oh man, I wish. Uh. No, this was much later. I think one of the biggest errors I ever made was why would I go clean my room? Your room's never clean.

Don: 2:13

That didn't go well is that when the spoon got broken? No, that was me. Yeah, that was my bro absolutely.

Doug: 2:23

Um, but yeah, there, that that was one, and as much as I felt like I had the just at the time, it came right back after me, so I didn't exactly win that one, yeah um.

Ron: 2:34

I feel like I'm very rarely am the recipient of justice um not that I not that I don't deserve it stepped on ron.

Ron: 2:43

The first thing that popped in my head was uh, I used to work at Costco, which is like a warehouse grocery store and I worked in. It's so large, it has a food court and you can buy pizzas and hot dogs there, and I used to. I worked for two years there, like when I was in college, and one night I was running the pizza window, which means you're the guy who has to take all the pizzas out of the oven and then cut them up and then hand them to the correct person who's waiting at that window. And if you're really behind, people are really mad and can get like a really long line outside of that pizza window, and I think this was one of those nights. So a guy came up and I gave him his pizza and I had pulled it down and he said I pulled it down from the rack too roughly and that all of the pepperonis, yeah yeah yeah they had.

Don: 3:25

You heard the pizza feelings? Yeah, yeah, exactly like they.

Ron: 3:28

He said all the pepperonis slid from one side to the other completely ruined this pizza and I I looked at it. He opened it up and it was indistinguishable from any other and I and he was. He was like asking for another one. I I'm like no, I'm not going to give you another pizza. You are literally insane. I didn't tell him that, but he just kept getting madder and madder and trying to bully me into giving him a new pizza and I said no, no, no, just like I'm sorry.

Don: 3:55

No, I'm not.

Ron: 3:56

Like I should have as a low-level employee. I should have just got this guy out of my hair and said like sure, fine, here, whatever. But I just wouldn't, as a matter of honor. I was like no, you are so insane. I'm not letting anyone in the vicinity of this place think you won this argument Right. So he eventually leaves and there was a there's a supervisor behind him in line and she was like, yeah, that guy was crazy. Sorry, I'll totally vouch for you if something comes of this. Well, something did come of it.

Ron: 4:23

The manager of the entire store came to talk to me afterwards. He said I don't care how crazy this guy had a big walrus mustache and all southern-y. I don't care how crazy that guy was, you give him the pizza. Customer's always right. Blah, blah, blah Chewed me out and that was that.

Don: 4:41

And if you'd given them the pizza, you probably would have had that same conversation about giving away the profits and how you can't. Yeah right right.

Ron: 4:47

Yeah, because you can't like accept a quote-unquote bad pizza and then turn around and give it to the next guy right now.

Doug: 4:52

That's, that's a bad pizza do you know how many millions we make a year?

Ron: 4:56

you're gonna give him a new pizza so I was really hoping that the manager would come by and be like hey, yeah, sorry you had to go, had to go through that, that guy was insane yeah it's bad and I saw it. Like three weeks later that same guy came in my window and he was like at my register and he knew that, did he recognize you? He recognized me and I recognized him, but he seemed ashamed.

Don: 5:13

Good, I think he was tweaking or something that day it was really odd, and afterwards he was like oh, pepperoni, shame had fallen.

Doug: 5:21

Yeah.

Ron: 5:21

Yeah, yeah, we've all we all have been there, right? You just, you're really hungry and then, uh, afterwards you're like, oh man, what was I doing? Yeah, yeah.

Don: 5:30

A hundred percent. So my, my story of justice was uh, I was a senior in high school, um, and I can't remember.

Don: 5:37

uh, 17, 18, but you know how you have that, that overinflated sense of righteous indignation you know you're on the cusp of citizenship and um, and my high school had recently repainted the parking lot and they made a mistake when they did and one of the student spaces had been painted the color of the staff spaces. But they knew it was a mistake right after they did it, so they only changed the color of the bumper, they didn't put the word staff on it, they didn didn't put the there's supposed to be staff on it in two places, on the bumper and on the ground, and uh, and nobody would park there and it was a time when, like, parking was at a premium in my, at my house always has been if you weren't.

Don: 6:17

If you weren't there 15 minutes early, you were walking from across the street. So yeah, um, so, uh. I decided I was going to start parking there, because I checked the parking regulations that are posted at the entrance to the school and it said that the parking, the staff parking, had to be marked by color and by word in two different places. And it wasn't, and I got away with it for like about two weeks or so, and then one day I walk out and I had a ticket on my car and that was it.

Don: 6:44

The fire of indignation rose within me, I was going to march right up to the, to the school office and make sure that it was handled. But it was like a real ticket. It was written by a police officer. It wasn't like something the school could just like wave a wand the man's just trying to keep you down, right but it's okay because I took I I went to court as my first court experience.

Ron: 7:04

Took that officer to court. I did.

Don: 7:08

And I had heard I'd been told that because it was back before you could look this stuff up online that you always challenge a parking ticket because the officer never shows up.

Ron: 7:19

Yeah.

Don: 7:20

So I'm waiting outside the courtroom and who walks in?

Ron: 7:23

Oh yeah, I was told they always do, because they get like time and a half for showing up. They're like incentivized to.

Don: 7:29

But for my like $30 parking ticket, like you know. Come on, but it's his honor.

Ron: 7:38

He's going to defend his honor.

Doug: 7:39

That's right, he told his wife the night before when I go into that courtroom, shelly, I'm gonna let him know what I wrote these punks have been trying to take me down for years.

Ron: 7:48

If I give them one inch, today is the day I am the law you're going down but uh, but I came well prepared.

Don: 7:57

I had, um, I had a letter from uh, the principal saying that, uh, that the parking space was intended to be a student space and it was miss, uh, miscolored. I had the uh, the sign that had the rules posted, um, and so it was fun. I got, I got a hearing. There was a real judge and everything, and I showed him all my stuff and the judge just looked at it and didn't even ask the officer any questions other than well, officer Jobes, it looks like there was a mistake here, huh, and then dismissed the whole thing. It was awesome. Officer Jobes left, head held low and you know what? She didn't even look at me as she left. We didn't shake hands or hug or anything. I was so happy.

Doug: 8:37

Well, that threw my whole thing out the window of him, the officer I had in my head, going home to Shelly.

Don: 8:43

Not today. Huh, I know her. Her first name was Barbara.

Doug: 8:48

So it was definitely not a significant moment for Don. That's what we know. Yeah, I like that.

Don: 8:55

Cool, yeah, that's good. Well, I wanted to have a story for you guys about justice, about justice and about. You know how important it is to that justice is served in the end. I think we all know that. Okay. So, like usual, we're going to go back in time. I'm going to go all the way back to the twilight years of the 9th century.

Ron: 9:20

Whoa 800s, late 800s, rome's falling no that's 450?.

Doug: 9:27

Yeah, that's much earlier. What's?

Ron: 9:27

happening in the 800s. Rome's falling, that's 450. What's happening in the 800s?

Don: 9:30

well, it depends because remember it might not have existed but we're in Italy, so Rome's a good guess. We're going to hang out there for a little bit and we're going to meet a bishop named Formosus.

Ron: 9:46

Oh, that's like a name.

Don: 9:47

Yeah, and from all accounts he was a. He was a good guy and very, very humble, like he took. He didn't spend any money on anything, he slept on a bare board so he didn't eat lavishly One of these real Christian weirdos, exactly. But he got a little bit sideways with the Pope, kind of like most Christian weirdos. Yeah, exactly, but he got a little bit sideways with the Pope, kind of like most Christian weirdos. Yeah, and in 876, he's put on trial for disobedience and for trying to usurp the papal throne and he has to actually sneak out of Rome and he's disguised by by followers and people help him. And there's even stories later on that like there was miraculous lights that were like following him out of Rome or leading him out of Rome, but he escaped.

Don: 10:34

UFOs, that's right.

Doug: 10:36

Yeah.

Don: 10:37

He, uh, he makes it out of Rome, um, but the Pope at the time uh, winds up, uh, uh, excommunicating him and stripping him of his bishophood, but that Pope dies. We're in a time period where the average Pope reign was about three years. So if you get one Pope mad, you just got to hang on for a little bit, and it doesn't have to. Nature will correct itself. Not Pope now Pope later, so he's restored under Pope Marinus I. Is that where we named the trench? Probably yeah, I have no idea.

Ron: 11:24

The trench pope.

Don: 11:26

Eventually he's restored his bishopship. His bishop is put back, and then Marinus dies and Adrian dies and Stephen V dies.

Ron: 11:36

He's outliving them all.

Don: 11:37

Yeah, it's 1891 and we need a new pope. And guess who? We elect Pope, the later Pope Formosa, pope, formosa, formosa. Okay, so he goes from being a bishop being excommunicated to now he's pope.

Ron: 11:51

That's a pretty good Great arc. Yeah, yeah, that's what you want to see.

Don: 11:55

You think it's like a pinnacle of success, like you're at the top of the Christian food chain. You're the pope, yeah, but in 897 he's on trial again. Oh, they can do that, you can trial the pope. So he's uh, he's put on trial. He's prosecuted by a guy named stephen the sixth and uh, and stephen uh shouts at him during his trial, accuses him of usurping the papacy. For uh to to uh, to assuage his his thirst for ambition. Oh, ste, steve six.

Don: 12:25

Yeah, it's least cool name, steve so far, and uh and and and for Moses sat silently the whole time that the charges were read. He was silent as the accusations were thrown at him. He didn't say a single word. While witnesses testified, he was silent while they delivered the guilty verdict that everyone assumed was probably a foregone conclusion. They stripped him right there in the Lateran Cathedral of all of his papal vestments. They chopped off three fingers from his right hand.

Doug: 12:59

Can I pause you there? We went from stripping to let's take off some digits. Yeah, why?

Don: 13:07

Well, those were the fingers that he had used to bless people with as Pope, oh my gosh. So they removed them. I think it's these three the index and middle and thumb and even while they were removing his fingers, he didn't say a word, he didn't move.

Doug: 13:22

Now I'm scared.

Ron: 13:23

Yeah, and then he grew them back. They had to go Because he was an alien.

Don: 13:33

Now. Then they had to go bury him again because he was dead the whole time. He had actually died. That's more ridiculous than what I said Nine months before, in 896. And they didn't put him on trial until January of 897.

Doug: 13:50

Don, you have quite the gift for storytelling I must tell you, you really strung me along there and I'm going.

Don: 13:55

Come on, man, okay but they did strip the dead guy, correct?

Ron: 14:00

they did strip the dead guy, but that means someone that had to dress the dead guy.

Don: 14:03

Yep uh, well, well, according to the stories, he was actually dressed already, because they just had to go get him out of the grave that he had been placed in the tomb in in the basement of saint peter's uh, basilica. So he was already dressed as a pope because he was dead and buried and then, to give justice to ron.

Doug: 14:19

At some point when he died, somebody did need to dress him. It just might not have been right then that's true.

Don: 14:25

Somebody did dress him when he died. That's true.

Ron: 14:27

We need to go to go back. You need to Christopher Nolan this for me so.

Don: 14:33

That he how long after he was dead, did this trial occur Nine months. He died in April of 1896. What's a body like nine months? Not good, I can imagine it's a little gooey is what I would think.

Ron: 14:45

Gooey, it's a ponification.

Don: 14:46

So he's there, he's there and it's actually reported in the contemporary. We don't have a lot of records from like. We don't have the transcript of the trial. There's only the one phrase from Stephen about his ambition. That is recorded in some of the contemporary versions of this story. But one of the things that is definitely recorded is the, the stench that was emanating throughout the cathedral and I don't know if you've ever been to the Lateran cathedral, but it's not a small building and it was that this is in Rome.

Ron: 15:15

It is in Rome. Yeah. What is our account here? How do we know this information? Are there multiple accounts of this story? Are we basing this on?

Don: 15:23

one account. There are multiple accounts, including decrees from popes. After this happened, that verified it happened and kind of tried to undo some of this. We'll we'll talk about in a minute. Um and uh, some contemporary accounts of people who were present and, uh, refused to participate. Um, the fun fact about so, uh, for Moses was absolutely silent during the trial process, but they actually appointed a poor deacon to like crouch behind him and like answer for him. What so? That way Steven could have a little dialogue with him when he was like throwing these accusations at him. So if you ever wondered what's the like, you know dirty job.

Don: 16:02

Crouch behind the gooey corpse and speak for it in a trial that you know he's going to be found guilty.

Ron: 16:09

Raise your hand for that one. Are you hiring the best or the worst?

Don: 16:12

actor for that job I can do anything.

Doug: 16:16

I can bring a personality to any stiff in town and like I'm definitely doing a weird voice right, like oh. And then we ask him again what?

Don: 16:25

does he say I'm going?

Doug: 16:26

to tell you a story Immediately. Yeah, I'm going to tell you a story Immediately, yeah.

Ron: 16:31

So, um, is this the first? Uh? Was this thing happening frequently in the church? Was this like were there protocols for this? Or did Stephen one day show up and he's like I got a wild idea?

Don: 16:44

but trust me, Now that this is an invention of Stephen's. So yeah, this is not something that. And it haslawed after it was over.

Ron: 16:56

Everyone felt so gross.

Don: 17:00

Imagine yelling at this guy too, like he's raising his voice. It's just insane. So a little bit of the background. At one point Formosus, when he was Bishop of Porto, was sent by the Pope to Bulgaria, to the semi-converted Bulgarians, to try to finish that conversion and bring them into the fold of the Roman Catholic Church. Eastern Orthodox church from Constantinople also had sent some emissaries. Um but uh, the King of Bulgaria was so impressed that he said we'll all convert to Christianity as long as Formosa stays as our Archbishop. Wow, but that was against canon law because he already was an Archbishop back in Porto. So, um, he uh. So that was the basis of Stephen's accusation was that he was trying to to be bishop in two places, which was a violation of law, but he didn't. He returned to Rome and and carried out the rest of his diplomatic duties. He just was a really good diplomat.

Ron: 17:59

Yeah.

Don: 18:00

Um, but, uh, when he became Pope, there was a very powerful family called the Spoleto family. Um, who, uh, it said that for Moses, uh, election to Pope was unanimous, which would have been very unusual. But the Spoleto family maybe had greased those wheels, because right after he was elected Pope, he, um, he appointed their 14 year old son as the Holy Roman Emperor. Oh yeah, but then during the rest of his reign, which is only five years, he turned back to the Germans and he looked at a person from Carthenia who he then also appointed as the Holy Roman Emperor, in competition with the Spoletos. The later pope was supported by the splutto, so we think that the whole reason that he was put on trial in death was because of the pressure from that family wanting to punish him for the, uh, the embarrassment that it caused at the time of uh formosa's death, uh, was that issue of the emperorship still disputed?

Don: 19:05

it was. And well, kind of was it? It had been settled because he appointed the um, the guy from carthinia, and then, sort of like wink, wink, nudge, nudge, said, hey, they're not really prepared, the Spoletos don't have an army, why don't you come on down here and see how nice it is here in Italy? And he did so. It kind of got settled, but not in any sort of diplomatic way. Yeah.

Ron: 19:28

Yeah, wow, of diplomatic way.

Don: 19:29

Yeah, yeah.

Ron: 19:31

Wow, and what did he? What did he die of? And is he? Is this just an old age thing?

Don: 19:37

It is, yeah, just a, which is unusual and happy for him because, like I said, a lot of popes were dying rather quickly. Matter of fact, the Pope right after him, boniface the sixth, only lasted 15 days.

Doug: 19:50

Bonnie.

Don: 19:50

Um so the sixth only lasted 15 days. Um so, uh, there's some rumors about poisoning and things like that, but boniface was supposed to have died of gout. I don't know how you die of gout, but maybe it's a thing. Different definition back then. Yeah, yeah, but uh, so after they find formosa's guilty, they, like I said, they bury him in a pauper's grave. So they're not back in the St Peter's tomb where he, or in St Peter's Basilica in his fancy Pope tomb Just throw him in the ground. But then Stephen says eh that's not really good enough.

Don: 20:21

Let's dig him up one more time. So they do, and they throw him in the Tiber River and watch him float out to down the river Like the heathen kings of old, again trying to erase like any. So annulled all of his papal actions, including things like ordaining priests and bishops. And guess who he had ordained as bishop, stephen VI, before he became Stephen VI?

Don: 20:50

Yeah, I must say they ignored that one, so they had to redo hundreds of ordinations, um, but, and apparently a monk fished him out of the river and uh, and at the spot where he was fished out there was miracles reported, um and uh. And so this idea that, uh, stephen was trying to control that narrative and and erase forosa's influence. All of a sudden, formosa has this little cult of personality around him and you know clearly he's a favored by God because there's these miracles happening. Yeah, and in August of 897, just six months after the trial, guess who's arrested and thrown in jail? Stephen Stephen the Six Stevie boy, oh my God. And he's only in there for a month until somebody goes into a cell and strang in jail Stephen Stephen the Six Stevie boy, oh my God, and he's only in there for a month until somebody goes into his cell and strangles him.

Doug: 21:36

That's really good, thanks for laughing.

Don: 21:39

Ron, that's a good one. Yeah, I wasn't expecting that to be the punchline.

Doug: 21:42

Well, if he doesn't laugh, he'll cry.

Ron: 21:45

This is some real clandestine Middle Ages stuff. Right, it really is.

Don: 21:51

Well, and that was an extrajudicial strangulation, by the way.

Ron: 21:56

So it wasn't a. Did they care about that one? Did they have to put his dead corpse on trial? They didn't Steven you get an opportunity here pal.

Doug: 22:03

Steven, who did it? Tell us the guy behind him it was well.

Ron: 22:10

It was my hot neighbor's wife she always had a thing, yeah that's right.

Don: 22:17

So that's that's the first story I have for you. Is this the idea of controlling the narrative after somebody is dead, like my like? Why? Why are we doing this? Like I understand, like the sploto family didn't like formosis, but like? What are we accomplishing by doing any of this except grossing everybody out?

Ron: 22:34

Right? Is there like there's a display of power here, right to some extent? Like we have the power to exhume your corpse and cut off your fingers. Yeah, um, um there's, I guess, like uh is the Roman. I feel like the Roman Catholic church is very interested in its history, right and sort of like uh, expunging any stains from that history. I mean, it's supposed to be the, the, the speakerphone for God.

Don: 23:02

right they're, they can't have any mistakes, but the um, starting with Formosa's death, the papacy entered a kind of a dark period with that, Like it wasn't, it wasn't the time of its, of its greatest virtue. It's actually referred to as the the pornography.

Doug: 23:19

Whoa.

Don: 23:20

So about a hundred years of rule by some some not so nice guys?

Ron: 23:25

This sounds like a great. I want to see this film. Trilogy the Pornocracy Gets censored in every single place because of the name. I want to see this film trilogy the.

Doug: 23:31

Pornocracy, yeah, yeah, gets censored in every single place because of the name. Well, and I even think I mean so, taking it away from the context, I mean, it generally seems to be the case that, like infamy or even more, fame comes after death, and so that's the only thing that I can think of is just that you would want to go after somebody more in death, because now the conversation isn't around what they're continuing to do, but what they've done. I think that would maybe be where it is, but you're telling me that there's more there's more okay, let's see if this tracks all right.

Don: 24:03

So let's uh, let's go to england. I'm there, we'll jump forward a little bit. In time we'll be here in the 11th century.

Ron: 24:10

So still no tube, still no tube, yeah, the channel is not there yet, just a couple of years shy.

Don: 24:19

So, king Canute.

Ron: 24:22

Oh cool.

Don: 24:22

Yeah, it was a. Scandinavian king who had rule for a little while after he defeated some Anglo-Saxons.

Doug: 24:30

This is if you didn't know, there's a very, very popular uh anime and manga that is going around right now that I also very much enjoy, called vinland saga.

Ron: 24:42

I've seen a little bit of this.

Don: 24:44

I intended to watch more and I oh it's a treat I strongly recommend and I am very excited to see where this goes now so he's mostly of danish descent and he, uh, um, he had two sons that, uh, that both kind of competed for what they thought the vision of england would be. Uh, one of his older son was named hartha canute, which I think means son of Canute, and his other son was Harold Hairfoot.

Doug: 25:15

That one got the short end of the stick.

Don: 25:18

He was called Hairfoot because he was super fast. He was quick like a bunny. Oh, not like hairy feet, not hairy feet. Hairfoot like a rabbit Proud feet. He wasn't a hobbit. Ron just entered the chat.

Ron: 25:36

What Hobbits you guys want to talk about? Gondolin?

Don: 25:41

Anyways, these two brothers actually half-brothers have different mothers, and when Canute dies, Harthacnut happens to not be in England. Gosh darn it, he's home in Denmark. So, even though Canute had said that Harthacnut was going to be the next king, Harold says well, but I'm here, so might as well be me.

Doug: 26:03

I'm the Canute you got. Yeah, these fast feet can be fast to the throne, baby.

Don: 26:09

So he takes the throne from his brother and rules England for not very long.

Ron: 26:18

Is this where the parable of the rabbit and the tortoise comes from? Because his brother was so slow getting back there. Yeah, his sigil was a turtle or something, for sure, yeah.

Don: 26:28

Harold Harefoot winds up dying of natural causes at the age of 24.

Ron: 26:34

Those are some natural causes.

Don: 26:36

Those are not, yeah, the prime of your life, didn't really? Live long back then, that's right and his brother Harthacnut then comes to England and takes back his brother harold harth canute then comes to to england and uh, and takes back his throne. But one of the first things he does is uh, finds his brother's grave and digs it up, takes his brother out of the grave, throws him in a swamp there's a theme of let's get him into some watery substance?

Ron: 27:09

if not, yeah, get him out of the good ground, put him in the bad ground.

Don: 27:14

But then he decides you know that's not enough. So he gets him out of the swamp and then they cut his head off and then throw both of those pieces into the dams, the river, yeah.

Ron: 27:30

History repeats itself. Watch him just sort of float away okay, okay, yeah, so I mean uh burial has always had like significance, right like uh, who gets a burial and where are you buried? I think like all human cultures, have always sort of attached significance to that right it's been meaningful.

Ron: 27:49

So I I do understand the sort of like no, you don't get to be buried here, right? Like where you're buried matters and you're a bad person. You don't deserve to be buried in the church, you don't deserve to be buried in the King's mound or wherever, Right. So I kind of understand that part. I get like the logic behind that.

Don: 28:06

Well, and, and that actually holds out with contemporary records. So part of the story at least one version of it is that they threw him into the swamp and it actually was a Danish fisherman. A fisherman who was living in England, of Danish descent, finds him in the swamp and pulls him out and buries him then in the Danish cemetery. And when Harthacnut finds out that his brother, that he had desecrated the grave of, has a new grave, that's when he decides he's going to have to I don't know execute him by chopping his head off.

Ron: 28:39

Were there also miracles in that swamp? Like all the eels here are incredibly attractive.

Don: 28:46

They're so tasty no, there was not um but uh. But they did have a nice parade of of harold's corpse, um, dragged through the streets from the marshland to the river, where, um, where they, uh, they cut his head off. So, wow, yeah, again, like what's the, what's the message? Right, because like, yes, it's about power, but again, like, the guy's been dead and he's been dead for for a while when he comes back like he's uh, I think he's been dead for like two years or something like that.

Don: 29:18

So, but like not not outside a living memory of like the people, right?

Ron: 29:22

this is seems symbolic, right? It's like hey, look you. Uh, my hair-footed brother was a bit hair-brained and it was wrong for you all to be ruled by him. So just keep in mind, I'm the guy in charge. Now let's emphasize that by cutting off his head and watching you watch this dope parade yeah, because I mean it, it's.

Doug: 29:50

It certainly sends a message, doesn't it? I mean, I and I don't know, this is like, where I think of like, uh, the expression getting so medieval, like becomes it. It's like this this is so common, it seems, for the story and like, even the fiction based on story of like. There always needs to be absolutely violent change to really establish dominance. It's just insane.

Ron: 30:13

But is this like a principally a medieval phenomenon? Right, like it should be, be looking for the answers in the kind of psychology and sociology of these people, because they did give a lot of significance to things that we don't ascribe significance to anymore, right?

Don: 30:28

They did. But but like what it raises in my mind is the way that Each new generation of politician basically tries to erase all of the efforts and successes of the generation before it, especially when it's like switching parties, like when one party is in control, they have an agenda and they try to do things and as soon as the other party takes control, like the first thing on the agenda is erase everything that the other party did. Like it's that back and forth. It's not like they want to continue building on, you know, the successes that have been made. It's you have to tear down first, right erase what has been built, and then we'll build something new on top it's not even just in politics, right.

Ron: 31:08

it's sort of a management thing in general. Right, what do you hear about? Every time there's like some new ceo comes to one of these uh, you know studio companies, they immediately cancel the projects that were slated to be produced under the last team of management and then they, you know, start their own slate of projects. Right, it's a so are we saying there's like human ego plays into?

Don: 31:30

this right?

Ron: 31:31

It's clearly not, even in the political sense. It's clearly not um uh. The destruction isn't just for the good of the of of civics or whatever right Of the of the society. It is to highlight the new people in power, right.

Doug: 31:48

Yeah, there is certainly a CEO right now taking over a company that is completely out of touch, saying he's going to get Facebook views for the company by reorienting their social media campaign, not understanding that it's a dead website.

Don: 32:02

You're right yeah.

Doug: 32:03

Yeah, you're absolutely correct, it is, and I think that maybe this is speaking to something in leadership as well, because I think that there has to be input from those that have been there in order for there to be success. And but yet you, you're right.

Ron: 32:17

We see it over and over again, and if it comes to the fact that we're putting yeah, dead guy on trial or display, there's something wrong certainly it's a management like an issue of management in general, because, uh, managers and rulers and leaders they don't actually like that's the position that has the least tangible product to back up their value behind right like they are not the people who actually develop the policies or implement the policies or create any sort of product so like.

Ron: 32:47

In order to show you're an effective manager, you have to be able to point to something, and it will be. I made these commands and these orders and told people to do these things is right. That also a part of it, I'm assuming that somehow is similar if you're a medieval Pope. I don't know what you're really doing. But you can say, like I purged the corruption of Pope Formosa from our ledgers by undoing all of his acts right.

Don: 33:14

Right. But then the next Pope comes in and puts those acts back in place and then that's ratified by the third Pope after that. But then the fourth Pope after that says no, those two guys were wrong and puts all of the crimes back in place on Formosa. So currently Formosa is still excommunicated.

Ron: 33:28

Really they haven't changed that. He's not. He's not been. My assumption was he was going to be some saint now or something. No, he was?

Don: 33:34

he was for like six years under two popes and then third pope, and then he seemed to just be forgotten.

Ron: 33:40

Forgotten.

Don: 33:41

Formosa, poor guy. But Harthacnut right does this to his brother and his life seems to be pretty good. He's going to be married, he stands up at his wedding feast in Lambeth and is going to toast his good fortune and he falls down mid-speech. No, struck down by what uh, contemporary said, must be divine judgment for the treatment of his brother's corpse. And this is important because this was the danish line of succession. So hartha canute right had inherited the throne from his father. Canute, who was the, was the Danish king, um, and, and the next king is Edward the confessor. It goes back to the Anglo-Saxon line, because the people no longer trust the, that the Danes have the, the, the, the right God on their side, or the power of God on their side, and, uh, and. So it has a real effect in the history of of England because it switches the line of succession from one family to a different family. Um, but that idea of God being on your side, can we jump forward another 300 years?

Doug: 34:46

Sure, but can I ask a question? Yeah, don, I feel like you will know this and I apologize if you don't, no worries. Where's Alfred in all of this? Where is he? Yeah, years-wise Dead in the ground. Thank you, I'm looking for Was this? I'm trying to put my history together from the. He'd be long before this right.

Ron: 35:07

You said 1100?.

Don: 35:08

Yeah, he dies in 899.

Doug: 35:11

899. And this is 1035. Okay, I was just trying to see if this was around the same time.

Don: 35:16

Okay, I mean like it's geologically around. The same time, it's almost instantaneous.

Ron: 35:21

Yeah, yeah, you're right, you're right.

Don: 35:23

Thank you. All right, we're going to jump forward to December 31st, 1384. New Year's baby In Lutterworth, England.

Ron: 35:32

We're still in England.

Don: 35:33

We're still in England, so we've well it's it's kind of yeah, it's the uh, but uh, um, we're going to meet a man named John Wycliffe.

Ron: 35:43

Oh, I've heard this guy. What is he? What's he done? Is he a? What is he? Is he?

Doug: 35:48

a pamphleteer, I know him. He's the. Uh, he's the. Come on, don help me out.

Don: 36:07

This guy's name was in bold in a textbook at some point and I had to write it down in a notebook. Yeah, he's a priest and he dies uh, suffering a stroke during mass. But uh, tolly counts. He dies relatively peacefully after the stroke event and uh and is buried, okay, and then he returned and that's the whole story oh okay, it's been a great episode.

Doug: 36:16

Tell me about his brother.

Ron: 36:18

Rodney Wycliffe though no.

Don: 36:21

So the rest of the story is that he dies in 1384. And then we're going to let time lapse a little bit more. We're going to jump all the way up to 1415.

Ron: 36:32

Okay, all right, so that's going to be 28 years, 29 years after he died. He's not going to be very gooey this time. Johnny's coming back.

Don: 36:39

Probably all dried out by now, yeah, he's a mummy.

Don: 36:41

Yeah, so we have a council of Constance, so it's an ecumenical council called by the Pope to fight heresy, particularly some of the uprisings in Bohemia that were. This is is again pre Protestant reformation by about a hundred years. So it's, it's all laying foundations for what will become the Protestant reformation. So right now everybody's still Roman Catholic, but two things happen that are important at the council of Constance. One of them is that they invite a another priest who is a reformer, questioning some of the things like the uh the power of the pope, and the uh the the right of tradition over scripture, things like that, and his name is jan hus and, uh, he knew that he was under suspicion by this council and they gave him a promise of safe conduct to the council, which they honored to get to the council, and then they honored to get to the council, and then they find him guilty of heresy and burn him at the stake.

Ron: 37:43

Yeah, that's the old moth to the flame.

Don: 37:47

But this council also says hey, john Wycliffe, you know the guy that's been dead for 28 years. We're going to call him a heretic too, because he was raising these same questions. We're going to call him a heretic too, because he was raising these same questions. As a matter of fact, he's the one that people like Jan Hus were citing as evidence of the problems they were having with some of the theological proclamations of the Catholic Church at the time. And they declare John Wycliffe a heretic as well. And they say that he should be dug up and we should burn him at the stake and scatter his ashes in the river. Is what the sentence is. Oddly enough, they don't do it. So they pass the sentence in 1415, say this should happen, but they seem to be pretty satisfied that they've burned Jan Hus alive, because it's dumb.

Doug: 38:34

Like let's just let sleeping dogs lie right, let's let the dead man rest Dogs more than sleeping. Yeah, my goodness another, throw them in the river story so why did they back out this time, though?

Ron: 38:47

was it just too far removed, or they were like, hey, let's actually work through the logistics of this, like what is there to bury?

Don: 38:54

well. So we're gonna get a little bit out of order in the story here, but I think it's just because they forgot, or they like were lazy, because they did it in 1428. They did it 14 years later. They went back and said hey, 14 years ago we said that we should dig up this guy who's been dead for 28 years. So it's been 44 years now and we're going to dig this guy up. And they do, and they burn his bones and they throw his ashes into a river. Um, and that river connects to the Thames and the Thames goes to the ocean. A matter of fact, there's a poet that writes that very thing that John Wycliffe, who they tried to erase from memory, has instead encircled the globe because his ashes have flown all the way to the ocean. And, rather than squashing the power of his influence, the church actually increased it, elevated it.

Ron: 39:46

So John Wycliffe is one of these early reformers, yeah, and this is why they want to hereticize him.

Don: 39:53

Correct, but again, he's been dead for so long. At what point do you just move forward?

Ron: 39:59

To me, this means there must be a moment of crisis or something right Like hey like this, this reform uh, it is really kind of catching on. We need to uh remind them that actually know all the, all the people you think are smart and have good ideas they're actually terrible and worthy of being scattered to the Thames.

Doug: 40:18

The dead man's river, the Thames. Yeah, I can picture the conversation. I wouldn't mind having a conversation about how we do things with the church. Well, I'll burn an old guy's bones.

Ron: 40:28

I would so rather not have that conversation.

Doug: 40:31

Let's go dig up a dead guy, you're like when I burn this guy's bones and throw him in a river. Good, stop questioning.

Don: 40:39

Well, you're right, though, that there is something happening that is bringing this to a head, and that has to do with Jan Hus. So, back in Bohemia, we have now some wars called the Husite Wars, based on his name, against the Husites, and they are super clever. So the church's main weapon is burning people alive, right? So they have these heretics and they're creating these martyrs by burning them alive. The Hussites are actually going to the execution sites and gathering up the ashes of the martyrs, and then they're loading them in their weapons, called Hufnasa, which is the word that we use. That's where we get the word howards are from.

Don: 41:15

It's medieval artillery it's where we get the word howards are from, so it's medieval artillery. And so they're like little mini cannons made out of wood and they would fill them with stones and with the ashes of these executed heretics and they would blast those over the fighting church army, and it's actually recorded that the ashes raining down upon the other soldiers like, would burn their skin. So again, the, the, the heretics that they're trying to erase, actually are the weapon that the uh, the hussites are using against the, the opposing army.

Doug: 41:54

That is the most warhammer 40 000 thing, I have ever heard ever used the ashes of the heretic in the weapon. Yeah, that's unbelievable, that's a great propaganda arm messaging team, whoever's behind that.

Don: 42:08

Uh, really awesome social media presence we're out there burning the ashes see you out there, enjoy your gaming so, rather than, rather than like a passive veneration of the martyrs, rather than a hey, we must remember it, they're. They're actually making them into weapons.

Ron: 42:27

But that is why I'm uh, can I guess that things don't go well for the hussites? Uh, historically though, they don't. You're right they are. They are defeated. But I'm assuming that they are laying a foundation, for I I mean, we do know that the Protestants have their day in the sun. They do About 100 years later.

Don: 42:45

Luther starts the Protestant Reformation, which then, of course, bleeds over into England and Henry VIII has the English version of the Protestant Reformation which leads to, about 100 years after the Henry VIII, another revolution that happens in England. You know what happens in 1649?.

Ron: 43:04

Yes, that's the the Renaissance. Couldn't have been more psyched for you to take that, though, couldn't be more disappointed. Couldn't have been more psyched for you to take.

Doug: 43:17

that, though Couldn't be more disappointed.

Ron: 43:23

This is the Civil War.

Don: 43:24

Yeah, so the 1640s is the Civil War, the Cromwell.

Ron: 43:28

Right and in 1649,.

Doug: 43:30

we execute Charles I and who is installed to rule England if we don't have a king?

Ron: 43:39

No one from the Renaissancenaissance, leonardo da vinci oh, it's too slow.

Don: 43:46

Cromwell, all we're cromwell, yeah and he's the lord protector, which has all the powers of the king, but of course he's not a king. Um and uh, he does all kinds of fun, things like uh, outlaw fun, outlaw christ, outlaw the theater.

Don: 43:59

Persecute the Irish Like what's not popular about that agenda, like I don't know why we haven't picked that one. But he dies of natural causes in 1658. His son takes over as Lord Protector. It's even worse, and so bad that the people start saying, hey, let's bring that king guy back. Didn't that king have a son, or something?

Ron: 44:23

Remember when the kings were better than this. That's pretty bad.

Don: 44:28

So we're going to, Like I said, Cromwell's been dead. It's 1661. He's been dead for three years and we decide we need to execute him. So he was buried in Westminster Abbey. There's actually a stone there, it's right at the top of the nave and you can see it. But he was dug up from that spot and drug to Ty uh and hanged from sun up to sundown. So I'm pretty sure he was dead at the end of that time.

Ron: 45:03

Yeah.

Don: 45:04

Cause I'm pretty sure he was dead for like three years before that Big time. And then we cut his head off, okay, and then we dip his head in tar and we put it on top of Westminster hall at Westminster palace and it stays there from 1661 to 1685, jeez. And we didn't throw it in a river this time, we didn't. We just put it on a stick. That way everybody who comes to you know parliament can can see it and say hi to.

Don: 45:31

hey, ollie, ollie ollie yeah and the only reason it's not there in 1665 is because there's a storm and the stick breaks, it's lost. So he falls down.

Ron: 45:44

No one knows where his head went well, uh, no, we do uh.

Don: 45:49

It was in private hands, though, um, from from 1685, all the way up to uh to 1960 some, some family had it that long yeah, um. Well, actually in the early 20th century there was two of them, uh, floating around that claimed to be crown walls heads, um, and in uh 1934, they did an examination on one of them and they determined that it was the. It was the actual one, uh. It was on display for a while at Sussex college and then, in 1960, sussex college decided enough's enough and they buried the head.

Ron: 46:26

Oh yeah, so I wouldn't at that point. No, it'd be like this isn't a person anymore, this is a historical anomaly and, uh, we need to. We need to up our graduate or our numbers, the other ones, the ones coming in um so uh it.

Don: 46:45

It's still buried there at sussex college. Apparently there's only three people who work at the college that know the exact location of the head. Um, so it's. It's a secret, so that it's not a a shrine to uh to this guy who overthrew the uh, the the monarchy, but uh. But it's not a a shrine to uh to this guy who overthrew the uh, the the monarchy, but uh. But it's somewhere within these walls. It says its location shall remain unmarked, its rest undisturbed, lest history judge. But let the dead lie in peace. Is the statement from the college very casket?

Doug: 47:12

with montiato. Who knows, who knows?

Ron: 47:15

we're fortunato so that one seems also I mean clearly politically motivated, right, so like ideologically motivated, more than that that one seems the least ego, egotistical of them, right? Unless who? Who's the new king? Who comes in? They find a king and charles the second charles say and then, charlie, was he the one being like yo, let's dig that guy up? Or with this, uh, that's some other royalists, I presume, or just part of their campaign of like hey, we, we really love you, charles ii. And just to prove that we'll never do that again, let's go dig up oliver. And yeah, no, it was charles ii that ordered the.

Don: 47:54

Okay yeah so maybe a little ego yeah, I think, well, and you know you killed my daddy, so, yeah, a little uh, revenge, I think, but uh, but again, like so this is like formosus is famous because he was the only pope to be put on trial. There's actually they call it the cadaver synod, because it's a collection of bishops and priests that are meeting to discuss, I guess, the Pope's history. But, like so many times throughout history, we're digging dead people up again and putting them on trial and executing them and making a show of their corpse and desecrating it. And I guess my question is you know why and we've been talking about this all along right, but the idea that you can control a narrative about history and change the way people remember something because of how you choose to treat somebody's memory, right?

Ron: 48:50

It's like they believe they are finally carrying out justice right, like justice could not have been served in their, in their living span on this earth. Therefore it is. It is our job to restore that sort of balance, right? Uh, we, we have the power. Um, I was thinking this also like. If this is sort of, this seems very revenge motivated, but it's also a method of revenge that seems reserved for only very powerful people right, yes.

Ron: 49:17

You can't go and enter your ex-husband's grave and be like I'm going to go throw him down the San Bernardino River or whatever. So it is tied to politics, it is tied to power and I think they would argue it's tied to justice. But I think we would argue this doesn't seem fair like justice right?

Doug: 49:42

no, I don't think so. It seems like the revision of history. Yeah, if that's something that they desired, it almost seems to give more of a name to these stories, even in the way that you're telling. I'm still waiting for you to bring back stephen six, like. And then in 45 they found the records of stephen six. He was there, but I um, yeah, it seems to almost have the opposite effect in almost every respect. Where here we have this situation? Then he was struck down Uh, I think I'm going back to Knute's sons right here and then he was struck down and they thought it was because of how he treated that and that would 100% as, as the one who believes in you, if I want to believe.

Doug: 50:25

I, I'm there and I'm going yep, shouldn't a mess with a Knut's rightful choice, right Um? Otherwise the aliens will get you. And then the aliens get you and wrap it up with a nice little bow, right Um. But yeah, it seems to have the opposite effect, that the more that you try to affect the narrative, especially by erasing, it's amazing how that truth will surface especially by erasing.

Don: 50:49

It's amazing how that truth will surface. Well, and, and that very point is what strikes me about all of these stories is the effort is to erase somebody's influence and it actually ends up inflating their influence yeah um, and especially in the cases of like john wycliffe and and uh jan hoose and uh, and a guy, even oliver cromwell, like he, you know, I'm sure he was not very popular in 1658 when he died, but like there's a statue of him outside of westminster hall today for where parliament meets like so so his, his memory, has been sort of rehabilitated, even though I don't know his his movement is also more or less successful, right Like they uh is credited with the.

Don: 51:47

Russian revolution, but not necessarily always the the best memories associated with him. Um, but he's in a mausoleum and is still on display today. Um, you know, uh gosh, it's coming up on a hundred years after his death.

Don: 52:02

Right Um butalin uh died in 1953, was embalmed and put next to lenin right and he had that same place of honor um, and had this like cult of personality around him, which khrushchev? Uh denounced and so secretly in 1961, they waited till it was dark and they took stalin out and now stalin is buried in a hole in the wall, literally the kremlin wall, um uh, which is not a place of honor, not a place that is, you know where he's, he's elevated, so, at first, like, his memory is held up as you know.

Don: 52:40

Oh, this is, you know, a great man who led a great country. But then I don't know if more stories are out or more people who are more comfortable telling those stories and all of a sudden, we have to change that. Franco in Spain, the same thing right was the fascist dictator and not remembered well by most people who have a memory of his time. But he has a giant monument. But in 2019, we decide, no, he shouldn't have that giant monument, and we take him out and they buried him in another place, so we don't have that. And then the Romanovs right, assassinated in the Russian Revolution and denounced by the Russian political state for some time. And then, uh, they've been restored and and given proper burials.

Ron: 53:29

Um, after some of their body parts had been found, um, yeah, they like came back out of nowhere, like in the 90s, right like I remember being a kid and watching that like propaganda piece. Anastasia with the talking bat and being like oh, you don't remember this movie.

Doug: 53:44

You think that my wife talking bat and being like oh, you don't remember this movie, you think?

Ron: 53:49

that my wife doesn't love that movie.

Doug: 53:50

I didn't say that she loves it.

Ron: 53:51

No, but like that's it's all about how anastasia secretly uh, you know, survives and actually actually there's still a line to the old czars, and wouldn't that be cool if we could restore them well in those stories about anastasia might be a good episode for us to look into, because there's actually several possible anastasias.

Don: 54:07

They claim to be anastasia over the course of the 20th century, but in the 1990s. I think the reason that there was a resurgence is because they found some of the burial sites and uh and those are the bones that have been reburied. Um, but even we can talk about, like the movement a few years ago to remove, like Confederate monuments.

Doug: 54:28

Right yeah.

Don: 54:29

Right, because it's that same idea of why were they installed? They were installed, you know, to placate, yeah, and to memorialize a moment in history and a version of history. And now we want to change the way we remember those moments. Yeah, to change the way we remember those moments, yeah, right. And there's like all of these things seem appropriate to me, but it's not like we're digging up a corpse and having a parade with it.

Ron: 54:55

Yeah, it's a great question because I do think it's something I think we touched on before. But you kind of have to ask, like, what is the purpose of history, right, and I think some people believe history is literally scientific fact.

Ron: 55:09

A historian is there trying to uncover evidence and primary documents in order to assert as close to a historical truth as possible, and I think that's very romantic and a worthwhile goal, but I don't know if it's really achievable. Right, like in in. In actuality, history has always been a very sort of politically motivated process. Right, going back to like the Roman emperors, right, and the, the, the first historians, right, herodotus and all these kinds of people, right, they're like always have opinion when they're telling you about the lines of these emperors who was good, who was bad, why, um, and we can kind of trace the political reasons why they would think that. Um, I guess I'm wondering, like I don't know, like history shouldn't part of me wants to say like the, the truth of history, um, shouldn't be as important as the way we use history to some extent.

Ron: 56:13

I know that sounds dangerous, that sounds like a slippery slope, that sounds like a very slow but, um, careful at least when we're talking about, like, let's say, dead oliver cromwell, right, like, is it important to get his story right or is it important to utilize his story for the contemporary people who are living at the moment. You know what I mean. Like I don't know if I feel a strong urge to like do justice by oliver cromwell or pope from osis, right, like, have their story told the right way. Um, I don't know if it matters so much, but To offer you a counter.

Doug: 56:48

There was an unbelievably dense game called Metal Gear Solid 2 that was released over 20 years ago. That ended. It's been over. Pause now if you don't want the spoilers of the ending of Metal Gear Solid 2. The ending I remember when I was younger playing it.

Doug: 57:06

I still think about this concept today. It is absolutely absurd. But basically you realize at the end of the game that there is a group controlling the United States government through the use of artificial intelligence, that their goal is specifically to regulate that there is too much information in the world. They predicted, like very early that there would be too much information, that even in the context of history books, that that's a good thing that there are historians who can condense the information, because once that much history hits and this many versions of history and the opinions begin to chime, it becomes a problem. But if you look at our I mean especially our world today, I think that that is a huge problem.

Doug: 57:48

Is like we do have so much weight on which version of history. Is like I I'm saying this to somewhat agree with you, ron and then also like acknowledge the danger in it of yes, it is important how we look at history and I think that we're seeing it live with people that well, the version that I'm seeing right now, based on everything that's happened, is this way, but at the same time, you're correct in thinking that we're never going to be able to get it exactly right because there is going to be a guy who comes around to completely alter. Well, I've got my own personal agenda, so we will burn the bones of this guy.

Don: 58:25

But even in that, there's a reaction that rewrites the history again, that it almost sets it straight and on its on its new path to achieve the narrative that's supposed to be there and I think the the idea that well so the the journey that we've been seeing these dead take over the last hour or so is that, even though they were dead, they never were at rest.

Don: 58:52

Their story continued to evolve and they continued to speak through the way that they were treated right and the way that the remains were treated and the legacy that that creates. So I think the the lesson that we should take is is from the living, who were attempting to erase the existence of those histories, because that didn't work. But I think what is brave and what is the the difficult part to face is saying no, this is a part of our history and, yes, it's an uncomfortable, ugly part of our history, but I still need to find a way to make it fit into my narrative and understanding of how we have become good people today. It's an uncomfortable, ugly part of our history, but I still need to find a way to make it fit into my narrative and understanding of how we have become good people today.

Don: 59:30

Yeah, and it's not about pretending that it didn't exist, and it's not about not teaching it to the children at school because we think it's uncomfortable or makes them uncomfortable. But how do we take the ugly parts and the good parts and show how we're getting to a better place than where we started?

Doug: 59:46

That's correct.

Ron: 59:47

I like that. I like that, okay, yeah.

Doug: 59:51

And I want to ask the both of you please burn my bones. Don't let anyone do nothing to my bones. Put them in a cannon.

Don: 59:59

Call me a heretic Shoot them at the people Howitzer, doug Howitzer.

Doug: 1:00:03

Doug.

Don: 1:00:04

Call me.

Doug: 1:00:04

Howie, now Howie.

Don: 1:00:05

Doug. Call me Howie now, howie Doug.

Doug: 1:00:07

That's it.

Don: 1:00:10

Well, thank you guys for a good conversation today. I appreciate it very much.

Ron: 1:00:13

Thank you very much, don. You had me in the first half but really pulled it out there.

Doug: 1:00:18

Absolutely yeah, stevie Sixx baby, thank you.