Doug: 0:29

As I live and breathe. We are here on the Uncannery again, welcome, welcome, all I am Doug. Here to my right is Ron, here to my left is I'm Don, and we have so much to discuss and talk about. But before we do that, have I told you, gentlemen, lately, how much respect I have for the two of you?

Ron: 0:50

Why did you?

Doug: 0:50

laugh, oh my gosh.

Don: 0:53

I don't think you've ever said that to me.

Ron: 0:54

Oh my gosh. No, never once felt respected by you, doug.

Doug: 0:59

That's why we get along so well, I felt looked down upon by you. You really have felt some condescension from me. I find that shocking. It's just funny to say, uh, you haven't uh um, I feel you looking up to me honestly. That's right when I scrape myself, uh and my my bits of ego that I try to find before I enter into these podcast sessions. I go. I hope they they like me as I walk in.

Ron: 1:26

I just want to reiterate that tonight and how would you make your way into our me and Don's group chat?

Doug: 1:34

It was a long uphill battle, but somehow I made it, and maybe up up mountain really is what we're looking at, but it's nice that you want to ingratiate yourself to us this day.

Ron: 1:46

This is a great way to start the podcast. Yeah, yeah.

Doug: 1:49

This might be the next hour is just me telling you how much I like you. Cool, do we have to do the same for you? Sounds it sounds too narcissistic, so I'm going to say no. Looking at Don's face.

Don: 2:01

I didn't come prepared with the list.

Doug: 2:03

It's just going to be Don ripping me apart for wrestling.

Doug: 2:08

This is already too emotional for Don. There may be tears at the end of this one. What do you want money? I'm having a hard time. So, uh, listeners out there, if you haven't donated in a while, just know this is the season to do so. Um, no, I, uh I bring that up because, um, this is an interesting, this is going to be I'm hoping this is going to be an interesting podcast. Uh, don and I have been engaging in a lot of conversations about, um, I guess let's start with respect, but uh, we've been talking a lot about, uh, sportsmanship.

Doug: 2:44

Sportsmanship has been something that has kind of come to mind and it's not that I guess you could say, ron doesn't believe in sportsmanship. Maybe he doesn't, but yeah, I've.

Ron: 2:52

Uh, only applies to people who play sports, and I don't play sports I think that you're a very sporting gentleman.

Doug: 2:57

I think that uh uh okay award put me in my place yeah, I think that. Uh, a war game or two, yes, okay, sure, sure yeah, I guess the.

Ron: 3:09

How are we defining sportsmanship? Is this just the interaction between people in any foreign? Does it need to be a competitive activity?

Don: 3:17

right, because that would be. The question is what's courtesy and sportsmanship?

Doug: 3:21

and this is no, I don't want to say exactly now this is the question that I have essentially is it is strange to start thinking about because I think that in on a field or in a competitor, you know, on a court, I think that maybe a coach is just going to instantly assume or teach, you know, sportsmanship is important. But I started thinking about the origins of this and then why we do it and what is considered sportsmanship and why sportsmanship in some areas seems to be universally agreed upon. Other times, maybe a little bit of it is broken. I started thinking about trash talk. I started thinking about um engagement in matches and play that are considered dirty, other ones that are considered um like highly intelligent.

Ron: 4:15

Cunning right. Yeah, the difference between like a dirty trick and like a. Oh, that was a cunning trick.

Doug: 4:19

That was pretty sweet, we love it, yeah and um and it really it it does depend. Pretty sweet, we love it. Yeah and um, and it really it does depend. And so, um, I guess I guess opening up is um, yeah, I mean, has this been something that has crossed don and I have talked about it, but maybe I'd throw it to you for a second ron. Like, have you found yourself in scenarios that you you've thought about this as well, or?

Ron: 4:42

a hundred percent. Um so, uh, I think you already alluded to to my war gaming yes and I think we probably uh over the history of this podcast alluded to our war gaming several times yes, uh but yeah, I play for the first time, only was it last year maybe last year I went to my first war gaming tournament.

Doug: 5:01

Yeah, um, which would be like the most kind of direct competition I've engaged with in a long time and to be clear you went to, is it the largest wargaming tournament in, maybe not the world, but in the united states?

Ron: 5:13

lvo is yeah, the las vegas open, I think, was the largest 40k tournament. Ah, yeah, yeah, um, uh, which would put it in the running for largest wargaming tournament and certainly in the united states.

Don: 5:24

Do we need to describe what we mean by a war gaming tournament and what Florida Gaming is, in case we have some listeners? You're right For everybody who just logged out.

Ron: 5:32

War gaming is a hobby and a tabletop game where you collect and build an army out of miniature figurines it dates all the way back to HG Wells, which I like to think lends it some credibility. But figurines it dates all the way back to HG Wells, which I like to think lends it some credibility. But basically you collect little figurines and you put them on a table and you fight a war game against another player by moving your pieces across the table Essentially a very complex and slow version of chess, and so people will go to tournaments to try to figure out who's the best at different games. Probably the most popular war game in the world right now is a game called Warhammer 40,000, which is a science fiction themed war game where you collect armies of aliens and space marines and you fight them by rolling dice and moving them with rulers across a table.

Doug: 6:17

And to further build on that and I don't know. Ron, I could see you maybe even taking this for a whole podcast if we end up going there. But this is also. There are branches of government in several countries that are dedicated to war gaming, like this idea of actually playing out real life war scenarios in which people are across the table in case something happens. Yeah, we need to play this out?

Don: 6:41

Is Wargame an oxymoron or a tautology?

Ron: 6:47

That's a new podcast.

Doug: 6:49

I think we just saved that one, because, oh my, gosh, my brain is firing.

Ron: 6:52

100% done. But I don't know if this has nothing to do with the question Doug asked me. I'm worried about getting too far off our beaten path.

Doug: 6:59

I don't know. I think you're going to be able to connect it. I trust you.

Don: 7:04

I do think, reminding you that Doug didn't care at all about your beaten path in the last episode.

Doug: 7:09

Time for me to burn his podcast to the ground. I like a little chaos.

Ron: 7:14

I think a lot of people okay, the kinds of war games I play are really just entertainment games. No one is pretending that these replicate real strategies to any extent or that you can learn from them, but there are definitely. There's a school of thought that you you can make a war game that is simulationist enough that you can use it to replicate the decisions of real world actors and then, based on those decisions, educate and and adapt your decisions should a scenario like that ever occur. That's certainly uh, and and the purpose of those games is not really competition, it's really just simulation, right to just kind of run through scenarios and playbooks and see how you might react to, yeah, whether that's a real life conflict, like a military conflict or just like, how would we react to a, to a, um, a natural disaster situation? How quickly can we deploy logistics to an area? Blah, blah, blah.

Don: 8:06

And there's in the games that you're playing. There's a set of rules or a manual.

Ron: 8:10

There's a set of rules, yeah, a rule book.

Don: 8:11

Is it agreed by convention or there's like an actual ruling?

Ron: 8:14

So that's the great part is that, yes, there are hard-coded rules, right, your squad of space marines can only move six inches right when they activate, but there are. The rulebook can never encompass all of the minutiae and tiny scenarios that will occur over playing hundreds of hours of these games on like real 3D spaces, where the board is always different and there are different kinds of setups and different ways people build and construct their armies. So, like, the physicality of the models is never guaranteed, how much space do they take up on that board, et cetera. And so conventions do have to arise, right. Like, for instance, just take a take a three-dimensional, 25 millimeter tall model, right, and and, uh, place it on a board and then take a ruler and move it six inches. Well, like, where? Like, how exactly is that? How do you make that the most accurate? Like, where does the base begin? Where does it end?

Don: 9:10

Where on?

Ron: 9:10

the ruler? Do you place it? Do you put it at the very end of the tape measure? Does it stop before the tape measure? So conventions have to kind of arise around very simple scenarios or situations like that.

Don: 9:20

And is it purposefully written to be chaotic like that, where the models are 25 millimeters tall but they're moving six inches?

Ron: 9:27

Dude, I can go so far with this. A lot of this has to do with convention, right? The world's biggest war game rules publisher is a place called Games Workshop, and they've just always used certain mechanics in their games, just always used certain mechanics in their games. They have always used inches instead of centimeters, right, and which is a pain, uh, for metric countries in europe who are like don't understand uh inches and wants centimeters because they would make more sense, etc. Um, they always use six-sided dice when maybe other you know uh denominations, no that's not correct uh, other kinds of dice would maybe work their dialects yeah, yeah, that's right dialectical dice.

Ron: 10:12

Um is our new podcast, um. So a lot of it just happens to be convention and popularity. Right, there are a lot of people would say. I would say games workshop makes some of the worst war games. They just happen to make the most popular ones because they're the largest company in the space.

Don: 10:26

What a controversial statement you just made so if you're playing a game and right, so you're encountering a new board, you said, and the boards are always physically different and and you're encountering a player, probably you've not played before it's likely then that you could encounter a situation where someone is, I don't know, doing an action or using a strategy that has not been imagined before. That you then have to decide is this within the rules or is this within the bounds of what's reasonable?

Ron: 10:51

Absolutely Right. This, this kind of comes up, and I think it was just like two or three years ago at I think it might've been Las Vegas open. Um, they were having the world championship for this game, warhammer 40 K, and it was down to the last match of the game with the two top players playing to see who will be the world champion.

Ron: 11:08

And I don't remember the specifics entirely, but in this game you can kind of you know, teleport units onto the board, and this one player did this in a way that was considered very dirty, very mean, like very mean-spirited play, but not technically outside of the limits of the rules, and he positioned this model on the board in such a way that the opponent could not position his models on the part of the board that he needed to in order to have a winning chance, and so he was kind of like just using the physicality of this very large model to block out it's like risk, where you just build up your armies in australia and then, yes, at one point you just burst out exactly right.

Ron: 11:52

He kind of got him in this like kind of hook jab move. That essentially meant very early on in the game the other guy would not be able to win and this became like everyone watching this game was like oh my god, my God, what a jerk move, what a dirty, rotten trick. But again, not really outside of the letter of the law of the game. And everyone was kind of looking at how would this opponent react? And he reacted very well. He played the game out to its conclusion, knowing that he wouldn't really be able to win. He did not get salty or angry or rude and he did in fact lose the game.

Ron: 12:25

And a lot of discourse occurred around this. And the CEO of is it Riot Games that published League of Legends, one of the largest video games in the world? The CEO of this video game developer was watching this game and he was so impressed with the opponent's sportsmanship that he tried to give him a scholarship of like fifty thousand dollars or something. And the guy was like that's insane, just give it to a charity, please. And since then there's kind of been like a sportsmanship award attached to this tournament, because it was so surprising that he did keep his cool, like, yeah, people who play war games, um, are nerds and they don't always have the best social emotional skills and it's quite frequent for people to get very mad and kind of upset and salty in these kinds of situations. But this guy didn't, he was rewarded.

Don: 13:14

What does this have to do with ancient Greece, ancient Greece.

Ron: 13:22

Well, what a turn we've taken here.

Doug: 13:24

Let's back this up. It's interesting because, uh, ron, you brought this up and you said like, well, where do we go with this and sportsmanship. But it's interesting like you instantly kind of just define what sportsmanship looks like, or gamesmanship. I guess we could say, right, uh, in no I think those are.

Ron: 13:39

I do gamesmanship is, is what ability opponent did to make it. Yes, that cunning move uh sportsmanship is how the opponent did to make it that cunning move. Sportsmanship is how the victim of the gamesmanship reacted. Gamesmanship is how you act within the game. Sportsmanship is how you act outside of the game. Does that work? Yeah, that works.

Doug: 13:55

I think that that does, and this is what I find interesting is, again we're back to the scenario I don't. Something plays out and then's how did you react in that moment? That and how do you describe this person? Like because we give? Is it a moral like, like a? Do they have a higher moral ground that they've taken? Is that what we're going to say?

Ron: 14:17

Yeah, yeah, yeah. So all this started with me describing my first experience at a tournament and I'm not someone who would. I would not describe myself as very good at these kinds of games. I enjoy playing them, but I kind of wanted to test myself and see how good was I really by playing a bunch of strangers and seeing where I would fall in the tournament ladder Right. But from the very first game I realized that what I was most important, or what I considered most important, was giving my opponent a good game. Like I could not bring myself to the point where, like I basically flubbed my first game just because I didn't want to be too mean with my like maneuvering and my models and I wasn't using them very aggressively just because I didn't want the guy to like not have fun.

Ron: 14:58

I was. I was like. I was like look, we're here in vegas, we're playing with these stupid toys, like it's nice to meet, to meet you.

Don: 15:04

I don't want to ruin your day Like.

Ron: 15:05

I was having a hard time being competitive, because I just wanted to be a good opponent.

Doug: 15:10

Um, but then what I find interesting is do you think there was maybe somebody else in that room who could have looked at that and said you're not giving me?

Ron: 15:16

your best competitive game.

Doug: 15:18

And then would also consider that not sportsmanlike. Yes, a hundred percent.

Ron: 15:26

And I adjusted in the subsequent games to be like no, no, no. This is like everyone's here to be challenged to have.

Doug: 15:29

Yes, like, so I need to play my best to give them that and uh, I tried to do that in the remaining games what you just described is what I am fascinated by, and I'm hoping that we can get everybody fascinated with this if we haven't thought about this before, because that is incredibly strange to me, that as human beings we've agreed to this contract, I guess, but again, it's not. It's not something that's ever directly stated. Maybe it is to a certain degree, but it I don't. I'm hoping that by the end of this we can maybe talk about like is that there's their central ethic that we can look?

Ron: 16:03

at a golden rule. A golden rule, yes, is there a golden rule?

Doug: 16:07

is there a principle that we can act by, our set of principles that we can act by? And don? Obviously you just threw it into ancient greece, don, and I've been talking about this because right away, oh good, I'm uh so at this point we're going to turn ron's mic off yeah, he's done, he's done.

Ron: 16:21

Yeah, he's absolutely done.

Doug: 16:23

This is my nightmare everybody say bye to ron. Here we go, uh, this. So we had talked about like instantly I'm going back to ancient sport and do we go all the way back to the olympics, which we've got some documentation on? Um, but then we did the olympics just ended, like a month ago oh, yes, they did, but I want to talk about ancient olympia, if you will. I like this idea of did they? They did, but I want to talk about ancient Olympia, if you will. I like this idea of.

Ron: 16:47

Did they have skateboarding? I don't want to know about it Absolutely.

Doug: 16:51

Yes, the first 900 that was ever hit was by Histopheles, predating Tony Hawk by several, several thousand years.

Ron: 17:03

His big trick was moving forward without falling down, and the stones that were under his board.

Doug: 17:12

But I okay. So let me back up for just a second.

Ron: 17:16

Further than Greece.

Doug: 17:18

No, actually we're jumping forward in time. I'd actually like to talk about where this originated from. So I um, I am, I'm very interested in john mackinrow this this famous olympian, yeah, famous olympian yes, uh, this tennis player, john mackinrow. Tell me what the two of you know of John McEnroe, if anything.

Ron: 17:45

You can't be serious man, you cannot be serious.

Doug: 17:49

Oh yeah, that's all you need. That's all you need, folks. If you've never heard him at 1980 Wimbledon, that's our man acting out after an umpire call I'm sorry, a call that was done by a player that an umpire was challenged on and decided to go with the call. But yeah, from the two of you, Did he?

Ron: 18:08

like become popular again in the like early 2000s. I feel like he had a sort of renaissance, because I would say John McEnroe was one of like 10 athletes I could name as a kid, as a teenager, teenager, and I followed sports not at all right he was like up there with like michael jordan and wayne gretzky and okay, he's got three he's got three baby. He's got three. I love it absolutely. These are the people I can name, but I knew john and I never watched tennis.

Ron: 18:37

But I knew about his fiery spirit and I think they started giving him game shows absolutely.

Doug: 18:44

Uh, yeah, and I I picked him back up because he's he's pretty big in pickle ball. Well, I mean, he played a pickleball charity event, whereas again, temper like flares up and he's kind of playing into it and he's become this kind of personality, as known as somebody who really breaks the mold for his fiery temper on the court. And so he's become a character.

Don: 19:03

I I remember him being the uh, the punch line on the court, and so he's become a character. I remember him being the punchline on the late night shows, like Johnny Carson used to use him as a punchline.

Doug: 19:11

Right, you know, for any kind of outburst or a similar thing. What I find interesting is when I say tennis. Okay, ron, I'm gonna use you as as the Guinea pig here. When we're talking about tennis not John McEnroe, but like if you were thinking of a tennis player describe them in terms of temperament and how they would play If you were going as stereotypical as humanly possible very silent, very concentrated, laser focused.

Ron: 19:41

You hear them panting, oh, laser focused. You hear them panting? Oh, you hear that, interspersed with the the ponging of the tennis ball across the court. It's very hoity-toity, it's very english. Everyone's in a big sunday hat, yeah, watching a ball. It sucks, it's terrible wow, okay, all right.

Doug: 20:01

Tennis, yeah, and it's funny, even in your grunts, that you just you provided you want some more, yeah. I mean you really, but you pulled them back. It wasn't a you know noise.

Ron: 20:13

Oh sure it's more, more violent, more guttural. It's a hard sport.

Doug: 20:19

But no, I'm commenting on the fact that you, you kind of pulled it back, because even in their expression of giving it their all and putting their physicality behind it, I feel like even that was pulled back to a simple huh.

Ron: 20:32

Reserved. Yeah, yeah.

Doug: 20:34

Which is probably not how somebody would throw a punch in a boxing match or something like that.

Ron: 20:37

No, no, right. Yeah, it's supposed to be a calm, cool, upper class competition.

Doug: 20:44

Okay, you're wearing nice clothes.

Ron: 20:47

They're probably not getting scuffed.

Doug: 20:48

Yeah, okay.

Doug: 20:51

What I find interesting is I love that John McEnroe was the guy going into what you just described, this hoity-toity environment, which incredibly serious athletic competition, and has this explosive personality that is destroying that image, and I think that people loved him for it as well, because it did just that and what he is known for is there's a certain amount of sportsmanship that he didn't display in the game that I think people enjoy not universally.

Doug: 21:27

I do believe that people were upset by him at Wimbledon, but one of the things that's interesting is seeing his matches play out.

Doug: 21:34

There were a lot of people rooting for him, a lot of people that just love the fact that he was so passionate about it, and I'm interested in that because I would instantly compare that to something like the heartbreak that I experienced as I was starting to research and study boxing and seeing that Iron Mike Tyson, once named Kid Dynamite for his unbelievable ability in the boxing ring, in the boxing ring eventually stooped so low to be a person who would bite off a piece of Evander Holyfield's ear during a match in order to get the upper hand. Like my, my, my boxing idol is here trying to go to the lowest tactics humanly possible, and I found it heartbreaking because it's just like look at what you've accomplished and now we're stooping to the dirtiest tactics that I've ever seen. And so that is sportsmanship that I despise, and so I've been sitting on this idea of like why is some neglect of sportsmanship? I don't know. I like it in my book and then other times it's not Well.

Don: 22:42

I'm wondering in my book and then other times it's not well and I'm wondering what. You're ascribing some, um, some rationale behind the behavior that I, I don't know that we have evidence for. So, in the case of mike tyson right, what you said was that he, he, did the, the, the. I'm assuming there's a rule against biting there, sure is so he broke the rule to gain the upper hand.

Don: 23:06

I guess the question about sportsmanship with John McEnroe is a lot of his arguments with the umpires had to do with a disagreement about the enforcement of the rules, so not that he was trying to unfairly gain an upper hand, but that he felt that a judgment had been made unfairly against him in violation of the rules. So there's a sportsmanship question there, because one is I want you to apply the rules the way they're in the book and the other one is I'm going to bite your ear.

Doug: 23:34

Yes.

Ron: 23:37

Which is very much cooler than the other.

Doug: 23:42

Absolutely, and I mean skipping ahead a little bit. I think that this is ultimately like I think that this is where it's at is I think that I can give him some credit because he's going after an enforcer of the rules, a referee, an umpire, you're right somebody who's legislating the game versus somebody who is acting against the athlete, right, and I think that that's where it is. But what's interesting is is in tennis they're given the call you get to decide if you're out. So it's kind of indirect of. I disagree.

Doug: 24:12

I don't think that is that we saw the chalk fly up and loses it. And and John would also go after members of the audience. He's caught after crying babies in the audience. He's gone after pigeons on the roof and saying you need to take care of that before we continue this match. He's gone after people in the audience for being too loud and saying like you need to leave. You don't know how to conduct yourself in a tennis court. I mean, he's really just ripped people apart for this and some people just despise that behavior because tennis is tennis and but don't do that has he ever turned his ire against the opponent?

Doug: 24:51

I don't. So from everything that I've seen, I have not watched every one of John McEnroe's matches. Forgive me audience, because there's at least one tennis scholar out there. That's like poorly research.

Doug: 25:04

And that's absolutely what the tennis scholar would sound like, yes, I just said I think it's because I took the hoity toity from Ron and I just instantly put that in. Um and so I'm not a hundred percent, but generally the major clips that I've I've seen in the matches that I've watched, of his big matches at Wimbledon, uh, Davis cup, us open, all of these Wimbledon, Davis Cup, US Open, all of these it seems that he's directing it at officials.

Ron: 25:27

Because that matters to me. I think that's an important part of the formula because, to me when you say someone's arguing with the, the ref, the umpire, yeah, I'm like. Yeah, that's why they're there.

Don: 25:38

Like, like they're scum yeah arguing with the umpire is not part of the game yeah, yeah, yeah yeah says the, the only one of the three of us who's ever been an umpire to me it's the same as like a smashing jilting the pinball table right like uh. Like I say but that well, I mean. But then you're trying to get an unfair advantage, like you're changing the gravity of the machine in order to but I think, oh, but I think.

Ron: 26:05

I think that's part of what makes pinball cool. Like the whole thing is an object. Utilize the entire object. I think that's fun.

Doug: 26:14

I'm going to here's my tangent. Now we object. I think that, yeah, that's fun. I'm going to here's my tangent now we're just going to nuke it. But yeah, my, my father is like, if there was one thing that I'm going to give him absolute pinball wizard, like that is, that's his sport and is he a?

Doug: 26:29

jilter. Yeah, to see, truthfully, like me, seeing him as a kid, like when I'm seven or eight, some of my earliest memories just watching the way that he would play pinball. His hips were always on the machine and it was he would move the table just slightly and it was a part of the game, like learning how much you could move the pin to get it to respond the way that you did. And we're talking my dad, my dad. Some of his most heroic moments were having like 20 to 30 free games stored on the machine and looking at a kid and be like go ahead and play, there's about 30 games on there and watching the kid's face like light up of like. Really, that was like.

Ron: 27:05

I mean, just as a kid. That is cool, is it not?

Doug: 27:08

But then, somebody comes over and like really, you move around the machine. It's like if the man knows just how much to not tilt the machine and lose his credit. Incredible finesse, that skill there, right.

Ron: 27:19

Absolutely 100%.

Doug: 27:20

But it's just outside of the realms because it gives you the parameters for anybody that doesn't know pinball. You can push the machine to where it will say tilt at the top of the screen and you lose your ball immediately. He knows just how much to push it. Are you kidding?

Ron: 27:33

me, and that's got to be different on every machine.

Doug: 27:42

But, is that a rule, or is that just the mechanics of the way?

Don: 27:43

the tilt mechanism in the machine is built it is because the reason that the machines have a tilt mechanism is so that you don't tilt it. Sure, you're saying that it that you're not supposed to tilt it. But if you can do it just enough that you don't trigger the the, the mechanism that's designed to prevent you from doing that then it's okay.

Don: 27:58

So that's like saying, like if I hit the, I hit the foul ball down the line and the umpire doesn't know where the line is, or I'm just stepping over it, that it's okay as long as I don't get called.

Doug: 28:08

Yes and I, but I. Is that not how John is thinking about, about it, is you? Clearly don't? So I need to step in for this, because I'm the master of tennis.

Don: 28:23

And then that becomes this whole other conversation, but John never argued that that the ball was. His argument was you made the call incorrectly, not I got away with something or the opponent got away with something that you didn't see. It was always. You made a call and that was the wrong call, right right.

Ron: 28:37

So that's the difference. Yes, yes, I don't understand that difference, I'm sorry. So he is saying you called that the ball was in and I think the ball was out. How is that not getting away with something?

Don: 28:47

Because the rule is that you have to call where the ball actually lands. So he's saying you saw the fact of it wrong, not I did something wrong and you and you missed it. Right, the tilt mechanism. If it doesn't trigger, I am breaking the rule by tilting the machine. It just I haven't done it to the extent that the mechanism triggers correct that to me is the same as an umpire not seeing that a player's foot is out of bounds yeah, and the player not saying well, yeah, I was out of bounds, right?

Doug: 29:13

yeah no, that does make make sense. It's definitely different there. So okay, we just addressed so much. Let's go back to 40K.

Ron: 29:25

You can be Tyranids, you can be Necrons. But one of them is more sportsmanlike, that's true, though there are armies that are considered more sporting because they are less cheesy or considered overpowered or less fun to play against.

Don: 29:42

So the armies that carry the most cheese are more sporty.

Doug: 29:45

Yes, so the.

Don: 29:48

Parmesians are no, no, no.

Ron: 29:53

There is a race and fantasy. Please don't call them Parmesians.

Doug: 30:01

There is a race and fantasy that is all rats, so it does work, um, so let's now, let's go back. Let's go back to ancient greece here. So don you and I talked about this a bit because I was looking for information going. We have these ceremonies in which you have wrestling, you have discus throwing, javelin, pancreation, which was boxing and wrestling combined, and you have these ceremonies in which, for the intents and purposes of my research to be a Greek competitor, a way that you are showing that you are Greek to your core is how you participate in this, in these games, and where I was running into a wall is it wasn't telling me anything about what sportsmanship was like in these games.

Doug: 30:47

It was just honorable to participate because you showed your culture in the way that you participate in this game through your effort, through your performance and through you know your legacy, and the crowd that is watching this is also engaging in this. But Don you brought up some interesting points when we had talked about this, of the ritual of even starting? The games and dedication of the gods. Would you elaborate?

Don: 31:13

Yeah, Cause the when you were called to an Olympiad, then before the games began, there was a. It was a religious ritual in front of the statue of Zeus where all of the athletes took an oath, and we don't have the exact wording of the oath. We've got writers who have written about what the contents of it were, but the athletes were were in front of their their idol, in front of their gods, swearing that they had followed the rules of training up to that point and that during the games they would follow the rules, basically promising not to cheat, taking an oath of sportsmanship of a kind and, interestingly, not only the athletes made that oath, but the judges made a similar oath that they would also apply the rules and follow the rules.

Doug: 31:52

Yes, and I think about um, about um. For any uh listeners that are not familiar, I'm going to use pancreation as the example um, that is, a lot of these matches ended in death, like it was. We are fighting until there is one competitor who is dead, and I think about that. If, like, what kind of an oath you're making, uh, ending a match with somebody's life being over, and I think the stakes are so much higher in looking that a competitor would be willing to give their lives for something like that, which is not something that we see within sport. But theoretically, there's also something to be talked about within sportsmanship and, ron, this is going to connect right with your war gaming idea.

Doug: 32:37

Another thing to discuss is the idea of sport also emulating war to a certain degree, the idea of two competing sides and engaging in athleticism, kind of like closely mirroring battle or, in the case of pancreation or wrestling like it is battle, of like closely mirroring battle or, in the case of pancreation or wrestling like it is battle.

Doug: 33:02

Is there something innate in that too, that knowing that you're engaging in something where there's a clear winner and loser, and that maybe we as human beings need something like sportsmanship, because if we're going to engage in something which is this is competition, which that will be a winner and loser in the case of pancreation, sometimes death or I will leave here defeated, you will leave here victorious. Do we naturally just have this as human beings? Because, yes, I give my oath to the gods, but maybe there's something underneath all of this to say. I need this because if we're going to engage in something like this publicly and we're going to declare this, we need something like this. That's not just here's the set of rules. Manipulate it to the way that you can, but if you're going to show your sport, or the simulated combat that's happening, or real combat that's happening, there needs to be a certain amount of sportsmanship, because that's also part of being a human.

Ron: 33:54

Yes, I no.

Doug: 33:56

I understand also part of being a human.

Ron: 33:58

Yes, I no, I understand I understand what you're saying and I you're saying you're trying to create the dichotomy right like why do people participate in sport?

Doug: 34:08

is it to?

Ron: 34:09

show character, or is it to best? Their competitor right and and, and. I kind of see that dichotomy exists in wargaming to the point where they kind of like people in the community, will sort of define what kind of a player they are. You're either a casual player or, like, a tournament player, and it is expected that if you are a tournament player, you're not prioritizing the gameplay experience of your opponent, you are prioritizing your ability to, to, to win right victory is the highest aim, and so a lot of people are like I don't want to play tournament players because they're so mean.

Ron: 34:45

They'll make me feel bad. They're gonna do crazy stuff that seems almost like cheating just to get that victory right and maybe even have a bad attitude, right they're considered like sometimes villainized as like bad people. Right Whereas a casual gamer just wants to show up, wants to hang out with their friends, wants to roll some dice. Maybe they win, maybe they lose, whatever.

Doug: 35:04

Right yeah.

Ron: 35:05

And so it's become this thing where it's like a casual player is about character, almost right, it's about taking that oath to the gods. It's about taking that oath to the game. Hey, we're all just here to play a weird little game and exult in our hobby, and the tournament player is is the warrior right? They're there to win at all costs. Um, I do think, like we have that, like why did we engage with a in a competitive game at all if we don't want to win, right?

Doug: 35:29

like right I don't.

Ron: 35:30

I don't want to throw a game right, um, but I also don't want to achieve victory, um, by a margin that would call into question my character or call into question, I guess, my ability to play the game right. Yeah, you know what I mean. Like, um, there's this phenomenon of like teaching a game to someone right, like, how do you, how do you, teach basketball to a to a to your?

Ron: 35:53

you know young child, right, a seven-year-old or something? How do you teach baseball? How do you teach a war game? Do you, you know? But think about like, when your parent maybe was playing a video game with you or introducing you to something, right, do you immediately crush them and stomp them so that they can learn like, so you can sharpen that blade.

Don: 36:12

That is definitely how my grandfather played gin rummy.

Ron: 36:14

Right.

Don: 36:16

Or do you?

Ron: 36:17

sort of hold their hand and do you give them a couple hands, do you let them win a few so they can feel that exuberance of victory and kind of hook them a little bit. And I can actually think of one instance when I was playing a war game where I was a bad sport. I feel bad about this. We were playing a game it was sort of a home tournament situation, so like victory mattered right, I wanted to do well for my team and I was playing against my friend who was newer to the game, did not understand the game as well as I did, and at one point he was about to make a move that would have been really beneficial to me but really dumb for him to make, like he just didn't see a better path. And I was bummed because my brother, zach, who was on this guy's team, said, hey, you probably shouldn't do that. And I was like Zach, shut up, just between me and him.

Doug: 37:09

Oh, okay.

Ron: 37:10

But, but, but I shouldn't have right, I should. I think it was fine for Zach to educate this guy and being like hey, look, there's a very obvious better move that you should make here. In some ways I see Zach educating that guy and if I was so good at the game I would have had an answer to that optimal move that my friend had made and I was kind of. Part of me was like I want him to make this mistake so it'll be easier for me to win. And I don't I don't know if that's I feel bad for lashing out because I I think a more sporting ron would have said yes, actually you should make this move, and this will be a more even fight, or challenge or something.

Doug: 37:51

But what I find fascinating about what you just said is there's also a part of your sportsmanship that was violated by the fact that you are playing him.

Ron: 38:02

Yeah, yeah, yeah and so there is another part of you. I think that's the excuse I landed on. Sure, but that so.

Doug: 38:11

But that's what's interesting to me is there is some kind of contract within you of like I am able to best this person in this way. We are engaged in this sport, and so what do we do with that? And I think about this, like with coaching, for example, hearing from the sidelines you're going to this move next and then going from there, and then it becomes like there's another meta level to sportsmanship of like coaches calling things out on a court or a mat, that there's even people that are coaching against each other, and that's like a whole nother level. That's to this, and so I find it interesting that one side of you is like well, this is the way that the game should be played. But deep down, you also had you and me are playing this game right.

Ron: 38:52

Not.

Doug: 38:53

Zach, freaking Zach, showing up trying to be in here with us too. So, um, can we explore this idea of the hoity-toity, uh, tennis realm to also kind of start to unpack this a little bit right?

Ron: 39:08

so your central question is why do I love it when john mackinrow seems to have such poor sportsmanship? Is that what you're saying, I suppose?

Doug: 39:16

and, and maybe to debate does he have poor sportsmanship? Because maybe he doesn't, is another thing here too.

Ron: 39:24

So, yeah, my first thought is that like it's fun to watch John McEnroe because, yeah, there's like a class thing here. Like I said, I don't care about tennis, it's way too quiet and it's just a ball going back and forth and I don't understand it maybe. But I can see angry man on TV yelling at those people and, you know, telling some rich person that they're too loud. That's pretty fun, that's kind of funny. So to me as a, as a, as a member of the lower classes, as a dirt bag, I'm.

Ron: 39:51

I can see. That makes it entertaining to me this thing that was not accessible to me, right.

Doug: 40:04

Maybe because I'm some spectacle to a degree. It's carnival, yeah. It's inverting the social order, yeah. And to go back to the respect, of this beginning of this episode.

Don: 40:08

I just want to say, ron, I don't consider you a dirtbag I very much, oh, thank you, absolute contributor to this guy's really, he's really. He's gonna ask you to borrow money.

Ron: 40:14

He's gonna ask us something by the end of this.

Doug: 40:15

I just know it another sport being played borrowing money so, um, in the research that I did on the origins of the sport, um, we're seeing that the origins of what is now tennis there, there was a game pre the tennis we know, which was called court tennis and had, or uh, originated in medieval france. Um, do you know what king absolutely loved it and brought it over louis?

Don: 40:48

well that's a good guess. There's like 84 to choose from one of them.

Doug: 40:54

Louis did it. The big one, our man who loved it the most and had a court built for him specifically, was Henry VIII.

Ron: 41:08

What oh?

Doug: 41:09

yeah, obsessed, obsessed. Indeed, I was this close, louis Henry, you do what you do. What I find interesting is the style of tennis that they played. It differs very much from tennis that we know now. The name for this type of tennis court tennis, is essentially what it's called, but is also referred to as real tennis. Oh yes, and that alone, just the title. This is real tennis. That alone, just the title. This is real tennis.

Doug: 41:40

So I mean that, going back to your idea of the ideas you have in the class that's involved in it, that really speaks to what it was. It was for the elites and it was played by the elites and the court. That was something that was there. It had areas that you started in, so there were multiple lines on the court of how you were to advance. It looked very positional, similar to a militaristic. There were shots that you could hit different parts of the court.

Doug: 42:06

So this wasn't just keep the ball in the court or try to volley and serve so it double bounces or gets out. It was like you could make trick shots into certain areas and that would give you a certain amount of points. You could bounce it off the walls. You could bounce it off the walls. You can bounce it off the walls, very similar to like a squasher it squashes the one that has racquetball. Racquetball, um and um. I found it interesting because it was so based and you had to be um, you, you probably had to be one of the elites to play it, um, and that point. And that got me thinking a little bit about who is playing this. Well, don, is there not a very famous set of orderly conduct that is going on in the medieval era for a certain class and group of people, in which they needed to conduct themselves in a certain way, a code of ethics?

Don: 42:58

Yeah, of course there was. There's lots of them.

Ron: 43:00

Oh, these are the famous tennis laws you're talking about? Ah, the laws of tennis.

Doug: 43:04

According to the laws of tennis, I will not engage you in this conversation. I'm thinking about knights right now. I'm thinking about knights.

Don: 43:12

Yeah, you're trying to ask me about chivalry yeah. Absolutely yes.

Ron: 43:17

Do knights love tennis.

Don: 43:18

I'm wondering absolutely, yeah, yes, the knights love tennis. I'm wondering, the knights predate tennis? Uh, a little bit, but they did have. They did have a firm sense of rules and uh and things that uh, uh, governed their, their behavior, behavior not only in sport but also in martial combat, like there's um amorous combat.

Ron: 43:37

That's true in courtly love there absolutely was a set of rules there too.

Don: 43:42

Uh, those ones were not written down as frequently though, but uh, um, but, yeah, absolutely, um. Going back to the 14th century, we've got lots of uh, these heroic uh songs that are written about, uh, the Knights that that give the rules of combat literally combat, yeah, um, but they would apply those same rules in tournaments, things like that once your lance breaks you, you have to throw it down and you have to use your sword, and in tournaments that you would use the flat edge of their sword rather than the biting edge of their sword, and things like that. And that was all based in this, this code of conduct that they self enforced but was definitely codified. That the Knights that they self-enforced but was definitely codified, uh, that the knights that they all agreed to behave a certain way and if you violated that oath, you faced all kinds of social punishment and uh and ostracization but isn't that?

Ron: 44:34

my understanding has always been that that's because they were like aristocrats, right, they were landed gentry and they didn't want to die, right? Like aren't these rules about making combat less lethal towards knights?

Don: 44:46

In tournament, but they carried over into actual martial battle.

Ron: 44:49

Right, you still had to fight honorably when you were on the field of battle, but you also weren't supposed to kill a knight, right, you're supposed to take them captive and ransom them.

Don: 44:57

But that was also mercenary. I mean, that was because it gets you money. It's not necessarily because I mean yes, you're right, the rule is that that's the honorable thing to do, but it also was beneficial to you, because then you would get the ransom money Right.

Ron: 45:10

It needs to have like an actual, a real world benefit for the non-knight right to make them play by that.

Don: 45:17

There's actually a couple of stories about like. So there's a squire in the 14th century, in 1316 in Norfolk, named Thomas Wells, who entered a tournament and was winning, and they discovered that he was not a nobleman. He was actually just a serf. It's a knight's tale. Uh, he was actually just a surf. It's night's tale.

Don: 45:42

Uh, it is the night, yeah and uh, and because of that, uh, they, um, they stripped him, like literally stripped him, uh, in front of everybody, threw him in the river, Um, and then uh codified the rule that you could not enter the tournament unless you were of noble birth. So it had been a rule, it just wasn't codified as such, Um and uh and so so that was applied that way. But then there's another story, also out of the 14th century, of an archer who did the same thing. He was a peasant, who Robin Hood, who I was hoping you'd say thank you.

Don: 46:16

Is this about the Fox? Falsified his uh his nobility in order to enter the tournament and bested everybody, and then they discovered that he was not noble. But then they hired him. They say he was the best archer, so the Lord hired him, and then he was elevated to the right status.

Don: 46:34

So in the one case, you know, bringing up sportsmanship, likemanship, like yes, he was violating the rule, because the rule said you had to be of a certain birth, but he was besting everybody and rather than just saying well, congratulations, they said oh well, you lose because you weren't of the right, uh, social class, yep, but in the other, in the other instance, they're like oh well, we could use you.

Doug: 46:53

So we'll just say it's okay this time and I wonder, because I don't know if there would be any descriptions of the crowd, uh, during these games. Uh, sure, but influence, but yeah, I mean, think about that right, like if you see, and I think about, like, when is it revealed that you know he's not, you know this nobleman because, again. I think that we naturally love an underdog right um I wonder about this.

Doug: 47:17

Of like you know what that entails. Of like, what a great story of this person who doesn't have nobility but then just does so great in in his prowess, and I think that that's another huge part of this, that that would be too much of a trail to go on. But yeah, you see that it's like he is hired for his ability of like. Congratulations, you did something that's amazing. Yes, we will absolutely do that. We will absolutely induct you versus this other guy, poor guy who's been thrown in the river.

Don: 47:46

So yeah, that's there, but it raises, like, so, in addition to that instance, right, where, like there, the rules seem to be flexible if it serves the need of the higher ups, right, we have this, the question that you, you all, have brought up in terms of your war game that you're playing in Las Vegas. But that same idea of what's the line between cunning and cheating? Yes, and I've got stories of knights doing the same. So, stories of knights who put lead in their lance, ah, yep, and when they're caught they have to burn all the equipment and they get disqualified. Um, but the, the most famous one that I think raises the, the ethical issue that you're raising, doug, is um, it's called the mirror shield case. It happens in 1380. Um, and it's a German knight. Um, and uh, um, he, he polishes his shield to like a mirror-like finish, blinding his opponent. Yeah, and at first. So he wins the first time, and the knight that he wins against says, oh, like the sun was in my eyes.

Doug: 48:51

Like he doesn't blame the knight exactly, yeah yeah.

Don: 48:54

But then the second knight says, oh yeah, I lost, but it was because of his shield. And then, like so, at first the the crowd accepts it, that he's like, this is a, um, a clever thing that he has done. Like it's not against the rules. There's no rule against it. He's, uh, he's found a way to defeat his opponents, so it's all good. But by the time he beats his third night now they've decided that it's cheating yeah and they change the rule and they say you can't do that.

Don: 49:24

They did the same thing in other cases, but with knights started putting like studs on their armor, right, like spikes, yeah, and again it's just decorative. But then people start to lose because of it. And then all of a sudden that becomes cheating and they start doing equipment inspections ahead of time, so like the rule book keeps getting bigger. But then again, what's the line between innovation and and cheating? Like I imagine that at some point basketball didn't have a rule against people wearing stilts or something you know like, but that would clearly change the game and not make it so like there is a rule now, like not specifically against stilts, but it says you can't artificially make yourself taller.

Don: 50:03

Um, but uh, like, what's that line? And how much of that is is cunning, and and how much of that is trying to violate sportsmanship.

Ron: 50:12

There's a, there's a level where, uh, it occurs and you can kind of tolerate it, right, you're like, okay, that was one instance that's gonna happen. That's life you can't control for every you know weird instance. Uh, but once, once that becomes a pattern, once people start clocking, right, like, hey, that's what I gotta do, and you, you feel somehow that that is um antagonistic to the core or intention of the game or the sport. Then you're like whoa, whoa, if we don't stamp this out in some way, this is going to completely shift the game from the sport. Then you're like whoa, whoa, whoa, if we don't stamp this out in some way, this is going to completely shift the game from the thing we like to something new, something we won't like.

Doug: 50:46

Right, but what's interesting to me about you bringing that up is that was how people were, at least what was being published about John McEnroe when he's coming onto the scene in the 70s people were feeling that way at the time being published about John McEnroe when he's coming onto the scene in the seventies um, people were feeling that way at the time.

Ron: 51:03

Right, he's going to turn it into. He's going to turn this into a sport for dirt bags.

Doug: 51:07

right, absolutely, he's going to happy Gilmore this thing Exactly, I mean, and that's, but then that didn't happen also, so there's a few things to note. Um, so, so there's a few things to note. Um, that happened. So we, we were just on courtly tennis right Real tennis and um in the late 1800s.

Doug: 51:33

uh, walter Wingfield, I love the alliteration there. Uh, Walter Wingfield brings in this uh, idea of lawn tennis. We've got a lot of games. Croquet is very popular at the time too, and tennis was actually the sport that it's like. Croquet is a thing of the past. Look at these folks that are throwing this ball around the lawn. This is some wild stuff. And so tennis starts becoming much more popular, and I think it's documented. He was bringing that to groups of people that, like some of the wealthy, could afford this because they would have the lawn space to be able to play it, and it becomes incredibly popular at the time of just buy a box set and you can start to go and play. England really picks this up. There is a whole tradition that I won't be able to explore in this podcast about Wimbledon, which is the most prestigious of all tennis competitions, literally to the point that royalty is. I mean you're, you're having seats.

Doug: 52:21

I associate like the queen. Yeah, yeah, you are. You're bowing before your match and fresh cut grass lawn, you've got everybody who's there and there's a certain amount of decorum that you need to display if you're invited. And this was an invite only tournament. This was changed in the sixties when open play becomes a thing where an amateur has the opportunity to play their way into the tops of the ranks, and this is what opens the doors for not only unionized tennis, which comes in in the seventies Um, but also people like John McEnroe who are playing in clubs that are just natural athletes that become like some of the greatest people in the world.

Doug: 53:02

In 1972, the men unionize at the time and they actually boycott Wimbledon for not allowing players to choose what tournaments they play in, because they kind of had a monopolized. If you're going to play in this, we need to not see you in these tournaments, because we want you to play in Wimbledon, kind of as a um, a staple of this is going to be a bigger event for us. 73, the women unionize um, which leads to a match. Are you all? Have you ever heard the names? Uh, billy jean king or bobby riggs in the 70s? Yeah, there was a big battle of sexes that happened, in which, in which, uh, billy jean king beats bobby riggs, uh, which was also quite the spectacle because he was very notoriously chauvinistic in his approach. That's awesome, yeah, and she just destroyed him and, um, this is huge uh for for the spectacle of tennis, but again, it's violate. It's like we don't need this to become this spectacle of like, beat up the woman hating guy.

Doug: 54:03

But so many people are brought into tennis because of this, and I think about it's 1977, I believe, when John plays his first big tennis matches, the advents of kind of this punk rock era and generation. It's the time where this is gonna happen. And then it's called, you know, culminating with these late seventies, early eighties games in which he's such a personality, and so this change happens, um, where I think people are also ready for it, of like, here's this old, you know, kind of institution that is for, as Ron started at the beginning of this, this hoity toity idea of tennis, and here's this new, new vibe that's come in, in which media, of course, is just jumping on because they're like, okay, now we have so much to publish about this, but I think people loved it too, and I think that that's the reason, deron, you knew one of these names it's probably the reason the xfl failed, destroyed by big nfl and the hoity-toity NFL.

Ron: 54:58

That's exactly right. That's exactly right.

Doug: 55:01

But getting into. Yeah, I wonder if that plays into of like of the times and sportsmanship as well.

Don: 55:08

Well, and I wonder about the license that the public gives to professional athletes because of the entertainment value of the behavior as opposed to the virtue of the behavior as opposed to the the virtue of the behavior, um, and and the. What we started, I guess we didn't start with, but you know, like 20 minutes in we finally got to the, um, the Olympics, the, the ancient Greek Olympics, and that's the first time that, uh, that I can find there's a codified like oath not to cheat, right, but it must have existed prior to that, but Plato writes about.

Don: 55:45

So, halfway through the, Olympics that athletic training is not just about improving the body but also about improving the mind. And so there's this idea that you train to be an athlete and you exercise as an athlete, not just because it's physical exercise but because it's also a opportunity to develop your mind's virtue. Um, and that, like you pointed out then, doug was, was also codified by the medieval Knights. It's the same idea that that, yes, it's a physical activity, but the main purpose is not just physical prowess but also honor and virtue. The 1375 on nightly virtues says victory must come from the union of body, mind and spirit. Right.

Don: 56:33

But then we look at the NFL. We look at, you know, how many professional players are accused of domestic violence, drunken behavior, like nothing that I would call virtuous behavior, nothing that looks to be like, you know, an elevation of the mind and spirit. But they do well on the field, right, they are physically able to do the task that is put before them, which is to move the ball down the field, and so we like to watch them play the game. But I don't like their behavior off the field, and I, and I'm wondering if we've lost that, at least in the professional realm, that connection between mind, body and spirit, that that when we go watch a little league game, like we expect our children to be learning those things Cause, if, if you're six year old, you know playing tee ball, start yelling at the umpire the way John McEnroe does, we would definitely say don't do that, that's bad sportsmanship. But then we'll turn on the TV and laugh at you know a professional player doing the same thing.

Ron: 57:32

I think I would posit that that has always been an ideal, but never the reality, right. It's not just like modern football or modern athletes are, but never the reality, right. It's not just like modern football or modern athletes are rude and not cool, right, but like. We only need to turn to our Chaucer to find that the Knights also were not always virtuous right and did not always take their code that seriously right?

Ron: 57:56

I wonder if this is an ideal we place on these people, because we recognize they have power Right Like they have a power to whether that is power over an audience, over the masses, over the people, or if it's just literal, physical power, that the power invested to commit violent acts, or we want to put a code on that, like you say, right. In some way, so that they are using that power for the common good, or at least wisely, or that there's a check on it in some way, right?

Doug: 58:31

And is it the most visceral display that we have? Like athleticism is such a visceral display of power, you know, in the way that, like an intellectual is gonna need to draw out a speech or a debate, or In the way that an intellectual Is going to need to draw out a speech or a debate, or write a book that you're going to need to read and dissect, maybe, or an artist is going to give you a piece of work that you need to kind of chew on.

Doug: 58:52

I need to watch one point, to see one magnificent play, whatever it is, and I'm instantly captivated by the artist. And I think I instantly captivated by the artist and I think, I think, that we, finally, I think we're doing it. I think, gentlemen, I think, that we're getting to. Where this is is, as you said, don, it is this unification of mind, body and spirit. And when you see an athlete who's be able to physically do these things and I'm going to use this, use John as the example is he is not. I don't believe that he is yelling at the umpire to necessarily make it into spectacle, because it didn't seem from interviews or anything that he was doing that his idea was. I'm going to be pretty good at tennis, but what I'm really excited about is being a personality on a game show later in life.

Doug: 59:43

I think I've got, can't wait to be featured as a as a guest, a guest spot on a talk show, right, I think that John McEnroe cared so much about his art that he was willing to sacrifice the reputation.

Don: 59:56

His sense of righteous indignation was powerful and that was, and that's that's, you know. One of the questions I asked earlier was it wasn't that he was arguing to to try to get an unfair advantage. His skill was his primary, correct reason that he was playing in wimbledon, not because he was an arguer yeah, um and uh, and that, I think, does make a difference. Um but uh, but yeah.

Ron: 1:00:21

Do you guys did you? Did you guys ever watch the last dance? Do you remember this documentary about the Chicago bulls and the Jordan bulls and the nineties and their, their last, uh?

Doug: 1:00:30

series, the only the like famous clips that have come from that since, and it's been on my watch list for forever because I've just heard so many great things.

Ron: 1:00:38

I've loved watching it only because I remember being a kid loving not never watching basketball, but loving watching Michael Jordan, of course, because he was just doing, like you said, insane stuff. You don't have to know anything to see him on the court and suddenly be enthralled, right? But the fun part about that documentary is realizing for the first time what a complete sociopath Michael Jordan is.

Ron: 1:01:02

He just like, yeah, loved. In order to be the, the, the amazing human being he was, he had to laser focus on that thing at the expense of all other things in order to be that spectacle for us right yeah it seems like that's part of john mcgrone doesn't care if we care that he's being sporting. He wants to be the best tennis player, right.

Doug: 1:01:22

And there's art in that. You know, there's art in that 100%.

Ron: 1:01:26

There's art. In what Art? In his performance? Or art in his complete dismissal of sportsmanship? Because, I agree, if someone is doing something phenomenal enough, rules change right. We rewrite the rules for them because we don't want to Kurt Vonnegut them.

Doug: 1:01:46

We don't want a Harrison Bergeron. Their ability to be phenomenal. Maybe art in. I guess what I was thinking of is like in the sociopathic behavior, in the way that Van Gogh will take off his ear. There is a certain amount of insanity that's there to make greatness happen.

Don: 1:02:03

We're seeing a very similar thing happen, just in the space of not a paintbrush but a court yeah and I I wonder if that's there and so in the same way yeah, I was just because I wonder how john mackinrow would would deal with like olympic tennis today, like it's not judgment anymore, it's now technology has the robots down. The lasers are there, Like there's no judgment in the way some of the sport is.

Don: 1:02:28

Like there's always gonna be judgment in sport. There's no way around that. But some of the things that John is most famous for arguing those arguments have been taken away. Like we can play it back now in super slow motion and see exactly where the ball landed. I wonder how like his career would have happened today and how famous he would have been because because his skill. Like his skill was there. The reason he's playing wimbledon is because he's an excellent tennis player.

Doug: 1:02:53

Great, yeah, so yeah, what is funny about you saying that is there is a more modern clip that's come out. I want to say the clip had to have been in the past 10 years and it was one of the ones I was looking at when he was doing research where he calls a play Like he's playing in like a kind of exhibition match, and he calls a play to go out and they instantly show the replay on the screens all around the stadium and you can clearly see that it's in and he starts laughing immediately, kind of throws his hand in front of him and goes, oh, give me a break. And he's laughing because, to speak exactly to what you're saying of like that's done now, you know what I mean. And he kind of has to laugh at himself because he's like my entire career is based on we've moved on from that now and he can kind of laugh because of the caricature of what is there, yeah.

Ron: 1:03:39

So how would we guide our youth, though? Right, you brought up the, you brought up the idea. Yeah, if, if tina on the court, young tina is swinging her tennis racket, yeah, and she's cussing out the ref, we're gonna say, bad tina, terrible tina yeah and I often think of like.

Ron: 1:03:56

we have lots of stories about uh sort of who we would consider bad or cruel or hardcore parents who have driven their children to be the best in the sport Often successfully they become the best. The Serena and Selena Williams story with Will Smith, their dad.

Doug: 1:04:17

Venus. Venus is the other one.

Ron: 1:04:19

Sorry, who am?

Doug: 1:04:19

I talking about you, said Selena oh Gomez. Am I talking about you? Said Selena oh Gomez. I'm talking about Selena Gomez.

Ron: 1:04:26

Right, we think that's bad, but they do become the best. So like is that a choice? Do you have to at some point, forsake the virtues to become the absolute best at a thing and at that point is it okay. So long as you are the best, it's okay. But if you fail to reach that pinnacle and you're not sporting, are you trash, Are you out?

Doug: 1:04:53

I would think that the sportsmanship comes back in, that I'm starting to feel that sportsmanship is the humanity that that's the reality is like. Sportsmanship is there to engage in the fact that competition is incredible, the whole all's fair in love and war type of an expression and that like war, sport, whatever you want to say well, no, some things are not fair and I think that there are some people that will forego for that greatness.

Doug: 1:05:20

but sportsmanship seems to rely on this fact that in engaging in competition, if you'd like, to still be in touch with that humanity aspect, yeah, there's a sacrifice that is made, sometimes for that greatness, at the expense because, several of the people, um, I there is also greatness in people that have tremendous respect and sportsmanship in there, but there is, yeah, those few that kind of push the boundaries of this to make us think about what sportsmanship is. For this reason, and so young Tina I don't think should be engaging in that type of behavior, because what is earned by that is we're learning to play this incredibly differently, because John has an entire lifetime of building that athleticism and craft and art to start to push those boundaries in a very specific way, because Tina maybe does not have the emotional maturity to understand why she's doing it other than I don't like losing or I will win at all costs, and that's a very different thing, as we talked about.

Don: 1:06:16

I think it's the paradox of the fact that youth sports and professional sports are actually different activities even though they look like they are the same activity, because the idea of using sport to train children, not just physically but in terms of virtue, goes all the way back to the Spartans, right, the Spartans taught. Xenophon said they teach the boys to fight, but also to fight honorably. Like it wasn't just about like the physical ability and the training, it was about making sure that your mind was also in control, in your own control. Yeah, and that's one of the reasons that we still have sport today for children. It mimics situations that they will need to face in their life. They will need to learn how to win, and they need to learn how to win honorably. They they will need to learn how to lose. They need to learn how to shake the hand of somebody that just took something from them that they wanted so badly.

Don: 1:07:15

Right and right. And that's really what we're teaching children, like the number of children who play Little League that grow up to play on the Dodgers is, you know, that's not the point. The point of playing Little League is to learn all those other things, and that's the separation that I think sometimes adults forget to make between the behavior we expect out of our professionals. Yep, I think it should be the same, because they are setting an example for those children. Correct, but the money?

Doug: 1:07:41

Yeah, it's rotten to the core, right Through through. Yeah, yeah, absolutely.

Ron: 1:07:48

All right, did we find our golden rule? What is it Be good to one another? I mean, that is right.

Doug: 1:07:58

Treat others unto I mean that is right.

Doug: 1:08:02

Treat others unto um, I'm.

Doug: 1:08:03

What I'm taking more than anything is, yes, sport imitating life.

Doug: 1:08:08

I'm seeing so much of that in the conversation that we have that there are times that boundaries do need to be pushed there, of course, in in every single aspect. But the truth is, is that, to use our original example, where John McEnroe is going to push the boundaries of we need to have the highest level of standards per professional tennis, because this is my art is not the same as I bite my opponent's ear when I'm beginning to slip because at all costs, I must win. They're saying two different things about life, and I think that that is the beauty of this conversation we've had tonight is that, ultimately, that's what I'm seeing is I feel that I never want to be in a situation in life that I have to bite the ear of the opponent in order to get what's mine when I begin to lose. I have to find the way to interact within the sport that is my life in order to do that, and I will push boundaries if necessary, but not at the expense of the humanity and the artistry of who I am as a person.

Ron: 1:09:08

Damn, that's it. Well, there you go.

Doug: 1:09:11

Have a great night.

Ron: 1:09:15

You can't be serious man. You cannot be serious, Thank you.