Doug: 0:28

Thank you, and just like that, another episode begins. Welcome to the Uncannery. I'm Doug, I'm Ron.

Don: 0:38

I'm Don.

Doug: 0:40

And we have much to discuss today about your grandmother's favorite board game.

Ron: 0:45

Oh, perfect, I brought my notes.

Doug: 0:50

Handwritten.

Don: 0:51

I hope.

Doug: 0:52

Parcheesi. Yeah, that's another good selection. Yeah, parcheesi is a good one. One of the oldest actually Did we know about the oldest board games in the world? Is it War the oldest? Actually did we know about the oldest board games in the world? Uh, is it war? Talking about the 52 card deck of?

Ron: 1:10

your cards higher than mine.

Doug: 1:12

No, the geopolitical one of my favorite games, resulting in the deaths of millions I'm gonna guess it's not chess.

Ron: 1:20

I feel like chess would frequently like if this is a who wants to be a millionaire question chess is on the board.

Don: 1:25

Right, I get it on the board.

Doug: 1:29

Regis somewhere right now is like he's won a million dollars. Yeah, yes, it would be the distractor.

Don: 1:36

It's the one with the rocks and the little holes that you count them. Was it Mancala? Is that what it's called?

Doug: 1:41

Oh yeah, contender, Contender, for sure. Um yeah, there's some speculation around this. A lot of people will say it's a game called the royal game of ur yes which I think was buried in king tut's tomb, I believe in like one of the side compartments. Like he frequented this game enough that it was buried with him because he liked it so much.

Ron: 2:02

I was at the uh, the British museum once when we were in London and they sell, uh, a facsimile copy of whichever particular model of the Royal game of her they have in display there, and I was like, oh sick, I'm going to buy this and I'm going to have a Royal game of her all my own. And it was too expensive.

Doug: 2:19

I was like, oh, that's a bit much well, you can be buried with it someday yeah, I should have told on the last episode cannery yeah, we buried ron bury me with my game boy and my coffee of pokemon red doug was upset because pokemon blue is the better one no, there's no site there, in that one the fact that you knew that, donald only played yellow. Today we're going to talk about backgammon.

Ron: 2:52

We're going to talk about backgammon. Oh, this is the oldest one. Oh, it's not, you misled us.

Doug: 2:59

Yeah, it's definitely old. So backgammon we're going to trace all the way back to the ancient Mesopotamian societies. We see that if we're familiar at all, if we're not familiar, let's get into it. We've got a 24-point board where these triangular shapes are drawn and we use 15 checkers for each team that are racing around this board to get to the other side and be um bared off the board, um, and the first person to be able to do that wins. And the reason I bring that up is if you think about um simplest kind of forms of games that you can create, um, the thing that I find fascinating is like earliest inscriptions of this um finder, like carved into things, so not quite like fossilized, but we see that this is carved into a lot of places. If you think about it like you can go, you can make this in the dirt technically, you know you'll be able to pull 15 of one type of object, 15 of another.

Doug: 3:57

Some of the earliest pairs of dice that are carved into bones are are surrounding this game. But yeah, this goes way back. We don't know if Batgammon's the one. We do know it is older than chess, though we do know that it's older than chess.

Ron: 4:12

Do we know how old chess is? Do you have that information?

Doug: 4:15

I was just going to say.

Ron: 4:16

unfortunately I didn't do my chess research, but I'm pretty sure Don has this in his brain. Don, can you think real fast If you had to make a guess, when was chess made? Sixth century, okay, awesome. Thank you, don.

Doug: 4:30

You're welcome.

Ron: 4:31

See ya.

Doug: 4:33

This has been another episode of the uncannery. Thanks for tuning in.

Don: 4:35

Can you tell me about backgammon? My job is done, yeah.

Doug: 4:39

That's fun. So, yeah, it's a much earlier, yeah, much earlier. Yeah, bc. And for obviously, starting leading with it's your grandma's favorite game is probably not the most exciting way to bring this in, but the reason that this is significant is I was not expecting to ever do a podcast, let alone talk about with anyone for an extended period of time, the game of backgammon, cause it's embarrassing, yeah, it's. It's beyond embarrassing. It's my back tattoo. That's a backgammon board, which the double pun of it being on my back um really back ellipsis gammon, and I put actually bro just to

Don: 5:24

bring it into the modern context. So by calling it my grandmother's favorite game. Is that supposed to be a pejorative, or is that a?

Doug: 5:32

compliment. I consider it a compliment now because I think, because my grandma was so cool.

Don: 5:38

Yeah, yeah, love your grandma, Haven't met her but I love.

Doug: 5:44

I'm just going to send that love out.

Ron: 5:45

Yeah, yeah, my love's going wherever it needs to get Careful.

Doug: 5:50

Uh, yeah, uh, looking at at backgammon, I never expected. Uh, it would necessarily be a topic that I would even bring to us, let alone a conversation that lasts more than five minutes. But um, neither did we, yeah that lasts more than five minutes, but um neither did we?

Don: 6:08

Yeah, here we are. This is minute six already.

Doug: 6:10

We're a thief, um, but I was shocked how enamored I was with it, um, because we were recently. My wife and I were recently gifted a set which led to us buying a smaller magnetic set that we've been playing before we go to bed and, uh, just strategically, tactically, uh just kind of getting obsessed with it and realizing like there's a lot more to this than I thought that there was. Um, we uh for for our listeners, um, within the time, I uh have forced both of these gentlemen into a game of backgammon recently. Yes, will you share your experiences playing the game I lost?

Don: 6:49

Yeah, I did too. Doug must cheat. Yeah, I think Doug was just like.

Ron: 6:53

I just really need this today. Guys, can you play this game that I'm not telling you the strategies, for no, it was a fun game, I think.

Don: 7:01

And it was the first game you'd ever played. It was the first game you'd ever played. It was the first game I'd ever played. Have you played it before? I've played it before, not obsessively like Doug, apparently, but I have played it before.

Ron: 7:09

It was a game I always saw. I remember there would always be old people at family gatherings, it's usually elder people playing backgammon in the back. I would sort of watch and be like, okay, there's something happening here.

Don: 7:26

It was always cryptic, though, because, like there's no markings on the pieces. There's no directional arrows, there's no like. It's not like Monopoly, where there's literally arrows and icons and things to tell you what's going on.

Ron: 7:46

It's just a board of mystery yeah, like it.

Doug: 7:47

Like the spaces aren't like squares, which is like how most modern board games delineate that you are moving across the board, yeah, yeah, and it's actually in some ways kind of counterintuitive because you're one of you is moving clockwise, the other counterclockwise um around the board, which that can be kind of illusory for people at first of I'm going which way now, and so, even though it's usually a pretty simple explanation in the beginning, there's usually a few hiccups along the way if it's not something that you're, you know, kind of a natural at or have played a few times. But to me it comes across very much. It's very sport-like in that you're looking at, you know, kind of simple set of rules, easy to get into, hard to master, um, where it's like, you know, mechanically, here's your field, here's your players, here's what you're looking to do, and within that realm a lot of the strategy and tactics reveal themselves as multiple plays come in Um. But the fascination that I have is that it's at its most basic if I were to describe it as a game that's driven by dice. So you will have this element of random chance of that. You're going to need to roll dice. There are going to be a certain amount of spaces that you can move. Sometimes you can't move them, depending if a person's blocking you, and so you need to make decisions that are very tactical, based on where these dice land.

Doug: 8:58

But then there's an overall strategy of how to position yourself, and I think that this is a very common theme that I see in, like very classic games and sports, is positioning is very important and I I so. I think somewhere along the lines I realized there was a lot more to it, but I just love that there was that little bit of luck that, even though I can research the heck out of different tactics or you can go on YouTube and you can find there's a, there's a website called backgammon galaxy. Uh, that does like a a analysis. Sick brother, it sounds really cool. You got a lot of friends.

Ron: 9:38

I know exactly what that website looks like.

Doug: 9:42

It's on geocitiescom, have an update. It says no, to be fair, they're pretty modern, they're. They're still running the big tournaments, uh, that are around, um, but yeah, there's, there's enough that people are doing statistical analysis of games that you can look at old games and kind of go through in the same way that you would with chess, which I think most people, if you think of like overanalyzed game, people are going to go to chess immediately. That would be my guess, right, but backgammon has a very similar following and you might think that that's strange.

Doug: 10:12

It's like, well, but you roll dice. So there's always luck involved and what's interesting to me is, statistically we can see that the people who are consistently the best, that maybe will play a hundred games, they'll win like a majority of those games. They will there just because if they're playing strategically the best way within the statistics of rolling, they'll do really well. But at a tournament, even somebody who's been a winner several times over because of the luck of those dice, you'll get some people who just happened to have a great game and and we go from there and that appeals to me.

Ron: 10:45

I like the fact that, uh, luck can swing your way, but you also can play optimally excuse me, optimally yeah, there's like, uh, that that random chance element is what makes it accessible to everyone right like and also prevents it to a to a degree, I take it from being completely figureoutable right right, and I think that that's ultimately what makes games not as fun like once it loses that magic.

Doug: 11:16

If there's something going on here, I wonder if I'm going to win this one the second that that goes away. I think that a lot of times that's what kills games and that's going to be something we talk about. Is there is a? I mean, yeah, I think if I were to survey a group of people, I'm wondering, like, what the sample size would be. I think that, less than generally, it's not going to be a very large portion of the population that's played this game regularly, if at all. Generally, like, I find that most people that I've talked to have not played backgammon before, but I've seen it.

Ron: 11:51

They're familiar with it, right? Everyone's heard of it. That was me I had never been close enough to play it or been invited to play.

Don: 11:57

Why is it still a thing, then, if nobody plays?

Doug: 11:59

it that is what I'd like to talk about today is if we're looking at this thing from ancient Mesopotamia that's shown up, that we've got some loose records of history and a lot of this. I'd like to shout out Tristan Donovan, who wrote the book. It's all a game. I'm taking a majority, if not all, of my information from this man today, who's done an amazing job of researching these different games. His book has been really fun to read, because I mean everything from risk to the game of life to monopoly. There's two different chapters on monopoly. These games that kind of have been a part of our culture for such a long time, where they come from, where they're, where they're headed, where they've been. He does a great job of looking at the, the context of like, where they fit in our world and how kind of some of the untold stories, and so what I'd like to talk about today is we've discussed fads on this podcast. The Uncannery has talked about fads, but when something Some would say the Uncannery is a fad.

Ron: 13:00

Oh, hey, man, I'm just, I'm not me, Come on, brother, but someone probably.

Doug: 13:07

To our listeners out there. You know who you are. You know this isn't a fad, all right. This is a lifelong cult, a blood cult that we're all in.

Ron: 13:15

You're an uncannibal Once you get in, you can't get out, or we eat you.

Doug: 13:22

But, yeah, I'm interested in this almost mythological status that it's taken of. It's popped up so many times and it's become a sensation again, a game, I said again. In a way that is really strange to me, because I agree to me, because I agree it. It's almost like why wouldn't this have died out by now, because it's such a simple game, but it continues to kind of show itself and so, um, if you'll allow me, we can start to get into the history of it. Shall we Sure? I vote yes. Okay, if you'd said no, this would have been a short podcast. So I want to thank you.

Doug: 14:01

I don't really have a choice I'm under contract our lawyers are standing by, so call it um. Let's go back to the romans, shall we? The ancient romans, love the romans, okay they're fun yeah why'd they have to invent dictatorship?

Don: 14:20

they play they play backgammon, but if you, you get eaten by a lion.

Doug: 14:26

When you lose the game of Ludus. Duodecim Scriptorum, you were often fed to lions. Is not a fact, yes, this was the game of 12 lines which, as I said in the beginning, what are you talking about?

Don: 14:41

Wasn't there 24 points in this game.

Ron: 14:49

The Romans really had a knack for naming huh yeah, like I've kick-started, something like that before is your copy of the game of 12 lines coming in.

Doug: 14:54

I just drew it on a piece of paper instead of spent 300 on the kickstarter um, but eventually became tabula, the latin word for bored, the origin of all it's also a middle eastern salad, yeah yes, it is and so we will be debating on which one is better.

Doug: 15:14

On the cannery uh, I'm going with backgammon here. Um, I think the romans took it on, as with many cultural activities that they did, because this game was played for money. The, the game was found, uh, boards were found carved into courtyards of many villas. In the ruins of pompeii there were pieces of art, including paintings depicting men playing it in a tavern before getting into an argument and being kicked out by an innkeeper. Um caligula stood accused of being a cheat in this game. His successor, claudius, loved the game so much he wrote a book about it and had a board affixed to his chariot so he could play it while on the move. And nero even reportedly gambled away enormous sums of money playing the game, which I don't think is a shocker to anyone, considering nero's incredibly compulsive habits, like burning down his entire city yeah, yeah he's gonna gamble.

Doug: 16:09

Uh, yeah, um, it fits, though, doesn't it like if there's gonna be a game with like a simple you know fairly simple to get it into, but you can win some money on it. I think that it fits within the context of rome fairly well. Um, the roman legions take Tabula to every corner of the empire, including what is now known as Southern Germany, france and the Netherlands, and it even made it to the empire's Northern, most frontier, north of Britain, where the locals took to calling it tables at this time. So we're still not into it being called backgammon yet. That comes later. But as legionnaires, um, retreated home, this game begins to fade away.

Doug: 16:51

And I think this is interesting because when, when we played backgammon, did you feel like a certain sense of combativeness in it? Yeah, yeah, there's definitely an aggressive element, right, and and uh, for people who haven't played, if you're, if you ever leave a single checker on a point, it leaves it exposed that a person, if they roll the exact amount of spaces to land on that checker, you have to start that checker in the race all over again from the beginning, get it onto the board and then race it around all over again. And, yeah, I agree, it's very combative, and so I. So I don't know, hypothetically, do you think maybe there's a connection here between these warriors and playing this game?

Don: 17:32

I do, I was gonna bring it up and and it was actually just thinking maybe we should describe quickly how to play, in case someone hasn't played before it's a great point why did I not think of this already?

Doug: 17:42

I think I got ahead of myself, didn't I?

Ron: 17:44

I let's just right now, let's speak all the characters and link to a YouTube video that will teach them how Absolutely Let me start with the ending.

Doug: 17:53

So, so, yeah, let me do my best with this, and then, yeah, if I can get you to fill in, that would be great, great. So, um, bad gamut is a game played with 24 spaces, in which both players can um, potentially, through the course of the game, inhabit your setup on certain points and the spaces are those triangular shaped things that people have seen on boards.

Don: 18:16

Right, yes, called points.

Doug: 18:18

Yes, okay, yes um, as play starts, one player is moving the other counterclockwise around the board to try to get their pieces all the way around the board and off the board and as they do that, they have to respond to rolling a set of two dice which allow them to go that many spaces as long as they're not blocked by a player who has two or more checkers in that space. If a player leaves one checker in any of those spaces or moves a checker and it's left solitary, there's an opportunity for the other player to potentially roll that exact amount that that space is on and knock that person off and give them the opportunity to start their race over again. And strategically this is great because the more that you can send a player back in the race as you advance forward statistically, you're going to win this game. You're not able to start pulling checkers off the board until they are brought into the last six spaces of the race. The last six spaces closest to your home board. It's considered the home board and then you can start bearing off checkers with the roles that you intend to roll.

Doug: 19:29

The game is over when the player who has removed their last checker from the board removes that checker, and there are rules that we'll get into later about depending on how far behind somebody is. You win more points if you're playing multiple games, for how behind that person is how dominant you were in your performance, and that's what leads me to think that these warriors enjoyed this so much because you could be so dominant at this game potentially and there's other games that do that, though too right in cribbage you can get skunked or double right, I haven't played cribbageribbage.

Doug: 20:04

Is that a fun one?

Don: 20:05

How does Board Game Boy, not play Cribbage.

Doug: 20:07

Wow you said Board Game Boy so condescendingly.

Ron: 20:12

Audience at home you should have seen his eyes. How did you know his AOL email name Board Game Boy.

Doug: 20:19

Hey, anybody interested in a classic game of tables? I'm playing the ancient version.

Ron: 20:26

Go play Cribbage board game, boy Table talk.

Doug: 20:29

I don't know that one yet.

Don: 20:32

But I think you're right. There's like all of these confrontational games like chess is an emulation of war right, Checkers is as well, and so the fact that this board is set up where you are opposed to each other and you're moving in opposite directions and there's that battle element of landing on the individual checker to kind of kick it back into the start of the race. And originally they weren't called checkers Don, what were they called? They were called men.

Doug: 20:59

They're table men, I was really hoping you were saying they were gammon.

Don: 21:04

Because the gammons have to go back. That's it, that's it so, but? But, like that's, so it seems to be an emulation of some kind of of human activity. Right, because it's you've got little little pieces that are named after humans, and and it's less warlike than chess because there's not as much killing. Right, and because, and because you're not, when you land on that individual checker, you're not removing it from the game like you do in chess. Right, you're just starting the game over.

Ron: 21:31

Yeah, and it's also mimicking less of a battlefield Right and it's like presentation.

Don: 21:36

It's a kinder gentler war.

Ron: 21:38

Yeah, this is something I've always wondered, which is like there are a lot of these like ancient, like even sometimes, our modern sports, right, football is supposed to be a, you know, an emulation of a battle, to some extent, right? And I've always wondered like how much is that true and how much are we projecting that sort of image onto it? And like chess very clearly, like all the pieces are sort of themed or warlike theme right.

Don: 22:04

But I sometimes wonder like is checkers really clearly, like all the?

Ron: 22:04

pieces are sort of themed or warlike theme. Right, but yeah, but I sometimes wonder, like it's checkers really like uh and and like backgammon also like are we saying this is a like a game that emulates violent human uh competition or you know, interactions or is that just? Is that just competition in general right?

Doug: 22:20

right. Um, it's interesting that you said don just said this is the gentler version. I'm going back to our jujitsu conversation being a gentler, martial art. But what is interesting about combat in general is the thing it's interesting because people, until you go like combat I'm going to the first word I associate with that is violence and for me, just training, so much I position is the thing that I think about. It's like positioning is everything in combat. It's like optimal positioning. I mean, like Ron, you and I play Warhammer a bit, don't we yeah.

Ron: 22:53

Sport of Kings.

Doug: 22:54

Sport of. Kings, absolutely For only the most prestigious of gentlemen. Yeah, position is everything in that game, I mean. The optimal position is, I mean literally how you score objectives, is placing yourself into position and even over, sometimes, the destruction of the other army yeah, but I'd say that's an element of, like, maybe all board games right like like any game that has a 3d element, right is about positioning something to some extent.

Ron: 23:25

I'm struggling to think of a game that's like not right, like there's an old game that my family liked called Sequence, which is again about like placing pieces on a board and like maybe you could extrapolate that to some sort of war metaphor, but like that. One disguises it very well, if that was the case. So I'm wondering like, anytime you are saying we're playing a board game, it's going to take place on this predefined space. It seems like positioning is just sort of inherent to that this is true.

Doug: 23:52

Yeah, I don't know if I necessarily can. What about, like card games? That's where I was thinking is is the board is what leads me to think map position, and then movement, but you have a card game called war.

Don: 24:05

yeah, man, it's great talk about strategy you want to play warland war is so bad, it's terrible.

Doug: 24:14

That's that is arguably the worst card game ever, if you think about it, because it's just bored. That's why it's a perfect metaphor. No one should engage in war.

Ron: 24:22

It is just attrition I wonder though ron like I, why it's a perfect metaphor. Yeah, no one should engage in war. It is just attrition.

Don: 24:25

I wonder, though, ron, like I mean, it's a, it's a an existential question. You're asking that. I don't know if, if we wanted it to get this serious, but, like the original, like gaming was actual war. Like it was, it was caveman tribe against caveman tribe, and it wasn't like oh, let's board, let's you know, let's go right. It was about survival and about growing the tribe and about land acquisition, and, and it wasn't until later that we figured out that hey, there's, there's peaceful ways we can have combat, and and so it's.

Ron: 24:55

I think all competition is an emulation of game but you're also making it sound like it's also a channel by which we funnel a sort of uh, primal urge, maybe, yeah yeah and yeah.

Don: 25:08

We need to get our fourth member the way it does talk about backgammon like talk about primal it's primal urge to play backgammon in bed my wife and I have no more marital issues because we work it all out through backgammon.

Doug: 25:24

That's why we play. But yeah, I hadn't even thought that we were going to go this direction. But I mean, you're right, it is. It's strange to think about because, going back to this idea, yeah, there's several card games Like I think of games where you build your deck or you're like if there's combat, whatever the case, there are a lot that are just acquire points, you know, and before the other person, and so I'm actually starting to think is there any? Are there any games that are not either beat the other person through, you have more, or race, like I?

Doug: 25:56

almost think that they almost.

Don: 25:58

I'm trying to think All the games that are fun have that Like. I'm sure there must be some like you know, yeah, obscure everyone gets a participation ribbon cooperative game for preschoolers, but I can't think of what it is wow, they're.

Ron: 26:11

Uh, yeah, it's the game of life. Remember that one.

Doug: 26:13

Yeah, boring as hell, um, but also competitive, like did you have the most money and the most best life?

Don: 26:19

right, yeah. Yeah, there's a sort of like bragging right at the end, right yeah um it's race.

Ron: 26:24

There's a whole genre of games that are trying to be less competitive, right. There's like an awareness in game design right now that, like competition can, for the people who lose, creates a negative play experience, right, and so like, why would I want to be bad at a game for two hours?

Ron: 26:41

and so the uh that you know, you're familiar doug with like what's called a euro game, sure, like a school of game design that comes out of europe. That is kind of like hey, what if we were all playing the same game but none of us really like stabbed?

Ron: 26:55

the other in the back or did like an aggressive move to another one. So you're kind of just four people stuck at a board playing your own version of a game, and these can be really rewarding, uh, but I guess in a very different way. There's still a competition and that one person will be the winner.

Doug: 27:09

It's still a race, though, because yeah, for we're getting real into the tangentials here. But, um, yeah, like, if we're, if you're looking at a euro game which they centralize, if you're, if you're like, what does he even mean by this? I think, like they center around not having combat. That's a very that's the commonality is, like they're almost always you're not going to backstab somebody or destroy their pieces, you are simply trying to build something yourself, but then it becomes a race, and so we're back to it's a race or it's combat, and, and I don't know, I didn't prepare this for this podcast and now I'm ready to do a second episode as a follow-up. Already, about your are all games, races and combat, and they might be, they might be, um, and what's interesting too about it thematically is I was thinking about this in the context of race and um, I was thinking of, uh, video games, yeah, and it's interesting that the one type of video game I can usually get anyone to play, it's like I will go to mario kart every time.

Doug: 28:08

That's like the most universal of well I can do a race and I I've found that with backgammon it's a similar thing. And when the second, I explain that it's a race, people are willing to engage. Um, that, take that step down from well. If we're not hurting each other or I don't have to kill you at the end of this game, it seems to be what people are willing to engage in.

Ron: 28:25

Yeah, maybe it's like a simplicity of objective, right? Yeah, uh, how? How few words can you use to explain what you need to do? You need to get to this point faster than that guy. Yeah, you need to remove these pieces faster than the other guy faster than the other.

Doug: 28:41

Yeah so, because any game that doesn't involve that is an activity, not a game it seems to be, because I'm even thinking about cooperative games, which is like a fairly new concept, I think, from what I know. I'm trying to think if there are any ancient examples of a cooperative game that you play against the game itself. Uh, I think this is a newer idea, and even that it's usually a race against the game itself. I think this is a newer idea, and even that it's usually a race against the board has certain objectives through, usually a card deck that you're burning through, and if you don't beat it in time or beat the waves of enemies, whatever it is, it still kind of follows that same thing.

Don: 29:17

It's like Jumanji You're playing against the board, that's right.

Doug: 29:21

And then you have to scream Jumanji when you win board, that's right.

Don: 29:26

And then you have to scream jumanji when you win, and depending on your age, part of it. Don't say it three times, or michael keaton shows up.

Doug: 29:30

No, now it's the rock, I was gonna say, depending on your age it's either robin williams or it's dwayne the rock johnson, and hopefully it's robin williams um sorry, dwayne.

Don: 29:41

Um, all right, so back to your point. So we were talking about romans.

Ron: 29:45

Yeah, playing but you said, when the romans leave, the game leaves too.

Doug: 29:50

Uh, yeah, so it's tables begins to fail away. Um, and it my book. So, looking at, it's all a game. Here, donovan writes. The former subjects of the romans simply failed to embrace the game with the same vigor as their departed masters, and I think what's interesting is if the legionnaires are the ones playing the game mostly. Um, I'm wondering if the soldiers and the fact that they're traveling and it's like here's something to do, here's a way to kind of blow off the steam of. We may be in battle any day or we're holding back, you know, we're holding back the physicals. Uh, whatever the case is, they're kind of looking at uh, I hope that I have my arrows right oh, there's a goths.

Ron: 30:29

Yeah, that's a roman shit. I just I got worried for a second I got worried for a second.

Doug: 30:33

I went wait, is it the pigs? So, and speaking of that, so moving to the crusades, if, if, can we move to the crusades?

Ron: 30:45

I'd love to, yeah, so uh, thank you.

Doug: 30:48

Um, christian soldiers during the crusades are playing it so much. During the third crusade, england's richard I and king philip of france issued a joint decree that banned anyone under the rank of knight from playing games for money and cap the sums that nights and clergymen could bet those who disobeyed face being whipped naked through the army for three days. And I found this interesting because one they didn't outright ban it from certain groups, which means I I'm curious how y'all take this, but like I almost imagine it was so popular. That's like we can't get them to stop, but we can whip them naked. It's just such a funny. I like I laughed so hard when I read that initially of like well, the knights aren't gonna stop, so we gotta do something for them but people below the rank of night we're not allowed to play they're done, they're done so it's because because of labor, yeah that's what I guess.

Doug: 31:46

This is becoming so addictive.

Ron: 31:47

It's the the tamagotchi of its time and it's a very common medieval sort of law right, which is like if you're not a knight, you can't do anything yeah, yeah, like it's a, it's a time period in a culture that's very invested in class distinctions. Right, yeah, some classes have to be very cool and others have to suck. That's right.

Doug: 32:07

Yeah, and this is, and I'm building this idea, but it's thematically. Something that we need to look at is is backgammon an aristocratic game? Because that might be the case too and we'll get into that. So Crusaders bring the game home with them, reviving this European interest in this. So royalty and aristocracy to people of no rank at inns are providing customers with boards and the game of tables becomes common across Europe following the Crusades.

Doug: 33:06

Um, we see this and um, I take a pit stop here for Chaucer mentioning it in the Canterbury tables, um, talking, um about, uh, dancers who played chess and tables at the time, this gambling game as something that needs to be banned, and King Louis IX moves to ban this in France in 1254. But, for the most part, people are ignoring this disapproval and it's interesting that there's. Usually, it seems that following gambling, there's always going to be a crackdown of like. But you shouldn't be from here. The Renaissance Europeans are playing this as many. There's about 25 versions that are floating around at this time that are broadly similar, with minor uh differences in scoring, how you bet and what happens. And sometime around the 1640s, um, the british invent the idea that if you roll doubles, so if you roll a three and a three. You don't just move three and three, you double that amount. So you get to move three, four times in total.

Ron: 33:48

Seems like a very British idea. Well sure, Doubling doubles. If you happen to have a Navy, then you can take four times the amount of the world.

Don: 33:56

Give me a little bit, I'll take it all. Yeah, yeah.

Doug: 34:01

And they also add this idea of a scoring system that you gain more points depending on how far back the player is when you win, which is where this new version that is officially titled Backgammon comes from.

Ron: 34:16

Can we talk about that for a second? Sure, I don't know. You mentioned that this is a variation of the game right where you can add a new element which is it's stop me if I'm wrong, the more you are winning, the more you win. Yep, why would I want to play that version? Um, unless I'm like it's like, unless I guess this is like.

Doug: 34:37

I'm a pro, like I would think, just raising the stakes. Yeah, you and I go 10 bucks for a game. Sure, now it's looking like it's going to be 20 bucks for me, 30 bucks for me. Because I'm beating you this much, the stakes continue to raise, especially if there's gambling involved.

Ron: 34:56

I think that, yeah, I want to win.

Don: 34:59

More is always going to be a part of that, because the mentality going into the game isn't I'm going to lose more because I'm going to suck so much. It's an opportunity to win more because of my luck and skill. And I guess it's also corrective, right, because?

Ron: 35:13

this effect doesn't take place until the next game, right? So it's like if I lost that one, well, now I'm going to raise the stakes so that I can win back what I lost in the next match. It's possible.

Doug: 35:22

Yeah, so the two ways, and this is getting ahead a bit. But generally, if you're not playing for money, people are playing for a certain amount of points, and so people are looking at I made this many points in this game, or I made up these many points as we're playing, but a gambler yeah, they would be like I just lost three times the amount I expected. I'd love to play again so I can try to win this back. Yeah, okay, so gambling element is going to play.

Don: 35:47

But it also changes the gameplay too, because this is what happens in cribbage, and I know you know nothing about this because you don't play any worthwhile games.

Ron: 35:53

But sorry listeners, get on me and don's level doug and learn cribbage okay, cribbers or whatever you are called.

Don: 36:05

There's a psychological element to it as well, because if I'm playing a game and I'm like there's a moment in backgammon where you realize you're probably not going to win yeah, same thing as during garbage. But if I'm losing in backgammon and I want to prevent getting backgammoned, I can try to focus my strategy on just moving my back pieces forward, so that way I don't lose as badly, even though I'm going to lose.

Ron: 36:28

Correct, it opens up new objectives. Yeah.

Doug: 36:32

And when we get to the 1920s and the roaring twenties.

Doug: 36:35

When we get there, we're going to talk about the doubling cube as well, which basically adds a. Would you like, like I, raise you element to this game, like in the, similar to Texas, hold them, which can end the game immediately if somebody doesn't want to take a double, and we'll get into that. Um, but yeah, this is called backgammon and uh. The name is derived from the words back and game, uh. And in 1743, edmund hoyle, the famous english chronicle, uh, chronicler of card and board games, coded the rules that largely endure today. Have we seen the name Hoyle before?

Don: 37:12

No, he's the guy that wrote the rules to cribbage. Oh well.

Ron: 37:16

Hoyle's got his finger in every pot he really does.

Doug: 37:19

But yeah many a card deck that you'll find in the store still has a name on it.

Ron: 37:23

Oh really, oh, absolutely, that's sick.

Doug: 37:25

Yeah, hoyle was way big yeah when it came to kind of codifying a lot of the pub games that you see and like the classics, and I would argue it'd be interesting to look into hoyle's life. I'm wondering if a lot of the reason that the games that we play are what they are is because, like hoyle, kind of compiled them in a sense um sort of a brother's grim of of board games right, yeah it's also he's also the source of the idiom to play.

Don: 37:49

according to Hoyle, it means to like, actually follow the rules. I was not aware of that idiom and I'm going to start using that. Yeah, play according to Hoyle.

Doug: 37:58

I like that a lot, but only Hoyle's games, or can I say that about it?

Don: 38:01

You can say that about anything, but I mean, I just want to make sure I have my idioms right, that's it yeah, who do you think are some famous folks going into our like past the 1700s?

Doug: 38:15

who do you think are some famous folks? Ben Franklin, Angelina Jolie.

Ron: 38:20

Angelina Bradgelina really, who's the dictionary guy Sam? What's his name?

Don: 38:28

I get the impression that Ben Franklin is probably not patient enough for backgammon.

Ron: 38:33

But he's like a dilettante.

Doug: 38:35

We're close, I would say Jefferson, yes, so Thomas Jefferson, because he's going to use it in France to flirt. I thought Ben Franklin was flirting.

Don: 38:46

I thought, they were all flirting in France.

Doug: 38:47

I call him Frankie Flie flirt, but some people call him the one with glasses. Um, yeah, so thomas jefferson? Uh, yeah, but he was. He wrote about playing it during breaks. Uh, between writing the declaration of in independence. Admirable, uh, admiral john jervis, not quite as famous but uh, of the british royal navy, complained that surgeons of the horatio nelson's, of the Horatio Nelson's fleet, wasted too much time on the game.

Ron: 39:13

That's why he died. He's out of there.

Doug: 39:17

And Jane Austen's Emma played it with her hypochondriac father. So, yeah, we see that again. I find it interesting, right, because you've got these different eras and again it's popping back up and this brings us we're skipping ahead a bit, but there's this more contemporary time where it really becomes popular in the 60s, 70s, kind of at its peak of tournament popularity in the 80s, and then followed by decline, and there is a man who is responsible for this named alexis obolensky familiar with that name yeah playing by obolensky it's a different type of playing.

Doug: 40:03

I'll tell you that because, um, our man, our man, did a lot for for the game of batgammon uh at the time, um, but he was a? Um, he came from aristocratic stock. He was born um in 1914, blue-butted family, respected member of the czarist russian high society and descendants of the rurik dynasty. Um, I will be honest that I don't know my russian dynasties as much, but man does he sound important. The important thing is he's, he's. He comes from money um here, and this is going to get back into our aristocratic like. Is this a game for aristocrats? Uh, russian revolution hits. This brings uh communist bolsheviks to power and the obolensky family flees the country. They wind up in Istanbul. And what game do you think little Alexis is taught in that country.

Ron: 40:55

Whatever backgammon in Russian is Cribbage, that's right, absolutely.

Doug: 41:00

He was taught cribbage and I always knew what it was. So you guys suck. Yeah, he was taught backgammon by their, uh, Turkish gardener and he developed his passion for the game. Um, they reloaded, they relocated to New York, um, he, um, he was notorious for his kind of playboy lifestyle, um, notorious womanizer and drinker. And uh, yeah, his favorite thing to do was essentially set up shop and teach people backgammon. Um, he, it's.

Doug: 41:30

It's weird to think about this because, like I like backgammon, but it's like it seems like his life's goal was he wanted to make it a cultural phenomenon using his influence and money.

Doug: 41:42

And so he, he literally starts trying to establish himself with celebrities in in new york and surrounding by starting to throw parties where you can gamble and play backgammon and, um, to a certain degree, this is a success, um, as he's kind of jet setting around, as he's acquired more and he's doing this hotel opens up in the bahamas in the 1950s and he convinces them successfully, I can bring wealthy people here to play this game. They will drink in your bars, they will occupy your rooms, they will run up gigantic tabs. As long as you let me play this game and I, I guess I'm shocked by this because, again, I started this episode with this as your grandma's game, but this guy looked at it as this is the. You know, like this is the high life, like this is this is what grandma's game. But this guy looked at it as this is the. You know, like this is the high life, like this is this is what you do If you're an absolute baller.

Don: 42:35

My grandmother was a swinger in the fifties. Like this would be right up there, maybe playing the backgammon and dipping the fondue all in the same Right. That's a parlor game.

Doug: 42:46

Would we call it a parlor game?

Ron: 42:49

that's a parlor game. Would we call it a parlor game? I think we would. I think because, you're right, there is like some games have a mystique, uh, a connotation, yeah, of class and yes and and like uh, cribbage is one, or like bridge, right, like these kinds of like older bridge has an esoteric like there's a secret knowledge, like you either are a bridge player or else it's just a mystery.

Don: 43:09

Yep, like it's a, and I think backgammon's a little bit like. I think it has that, that mystique to it, but there's a chink in that wall yeah, yeah right like it's. It's a lot more accessible than bridge. Like, yeah, bridge is a has a much more. It's a longer initiation period, a harder learning curve.

Doug: 43:26

I think and uh, hold on to that idea. You keep setting me up, gentlemen, it's as if you know, and and for the we've gotten pretty good at this podcasting thing it's freaking me out.

Doug: 43:37

Um, we are going to come back to bridge players because, uh, they, they are going to be mentioned. There's a wave of bridge players who end up getting into backgammon, but um throws this tournament. I wanted to throw one of the highlights, um of one of the tournaments Um. So, march 1964, he invites a gaggle of counts, millionaires, stockbrokers and socialites um to this um hotel in the Bahamas. They begin to um play and the tournament, uh, as it is described in the book, is a suned party lubricated by drinks on the house and soundtracked by the constant rattle of dice shakers.

Doug: 44:14

The final game saw New York publisher Porter Ijams up against Charles Wacker III, a millionaire racehorse breeder from Chicago who later became a fugitive after the FBI accused him of tax evasion worth millions of dollars. The stake was nearly 8,000, around 60,000 in today's money and the silver Obolensky cup. Wacker won the game and after um, he and those who bet on his success had collected their winnings, because a big part of this, too, was you were betting on who you thought would win. So even those that are not participating are throwing money around with side bets of. I think whackers got it. I have a 200, I'm a whacker guy.

Ron: 44:56

I'm kind of a whacker guy myself um, uh.

Doug: 45:01

So the backgammon glitterati wound down to the uh black tie celebration that featured games, played for even greater stakes and concluded with a swim at sunrise, and you can imagine this right like it's 1954. I'm thinking of the show mad men right now like I'm just imagining don draper's at the pool like I see you're playing backgammon.

Doug: 45:19

I advertised sets for fao schwartz for them once, um, but this celebrity event leads into the 60s to where you can look up images and the person I'm thinking of is like, if you look up either Mick Jagger you know from the Rolling Stones playing backgammon, or Hugh Hefner, there are just truthfully like, hundreds of images like this became the thing that people were doing and as these parties kind of started to go into full swing, the Playboy Mansion is hosting them. It becomes a significant thing in the 60s. That becomes a cultural standpoint. Sales of backgammon boards become absolutely outrageous, to the point that Abercrombie, fitch in their 1974, so it's ahead a little bit, but by the 70ies the 1974 edition catalog for Abercrombie and Fitch has a full page spread of just like 25 different sets that you can buy with different logos and patterns. People are doing luxury leather sets that you can buy and even to this day I don't know if you know, but you can go like Gucci makes a set that is worth thousands of dollars that has their imprinting on the side Don.

Ron: 46:33

I think Doug is just trying to convince us he's cool for playing backgammon.

Don: 46:36

He didn't bring the Gucci set over today.

Doug: 46:38

Well, gentlemen, you're misplaced here. I'm actually asking for my Christmas present. So, if you can get as many people to donate as possible. Can you imagine owning that Like, all right, we're going to play on the $6,000 set? Put If you can get as many people to donate as possible. Can you imagine owning that Like who? All right, we're going to play on the $6,000 set. Put the drinks away, like I mean, it's like you're playing with gloves. Oh, I just, I couldn't even imagine it personally, I guess that's not so uncommon, though.

Ron: 47:00

Right Like there is a certain degree to which uh board games become art objects. Right Like uh objects. Right like uh I'm more familiar with, like all the different expensive chess sets you can buy.

Ron: 47:11

Right like these ones are carved out of crystal and stuff like there is a yeah and, and there is a sort of status that certain games command that others don't right like no one no one's selling a that I'm aware of, a crystal, uh monopoly set right, uh, you'd be wrong and maybe a monopoly is like past that threshold, but I mean like can you, can you get sorry made out of obsidian or something? Like I'm making it right now dragging introducing sorry, or parcheese.

Doug: 47:39

As don said, cribbage definitely there's got to be, I would think, because as much as I don't know cribbage, I know that that would track that it's on and cribbage does emulate. It emulates horse racing, correct isn't the reason. It is also a racing game yeah, I would imagine that they've got some very deluxe sets. I think the simplicity of it lends to it.

Ron: 48:00

But yeah, you're right, but also like uh, if I may invite you to carry out a thought experiment, I want you to imagine in your mind a international chess tournament, all right. You and the audience now have a picture in your mind. I do Okay and now erase that image and now replace it with an international magic the gathering tournament.

Doug: 48:20

It smells different immediately.

Ron: 48:22

Right yeah, like you're picturing a different crowd, you're picturing a different level of opulence. Probably Is one of those games marginally better or more difficult to play. I would say they're fairly equal. I think Magic is also a confusing and very tactically difficult game to wrap your head around and master. But yeah, one of them is sort of the game of kings and the other is the game of schlubs.

Doug: 48:52

The game of needing deodorant.

Don: 48:53

Yeah, that's right, but but part of that, I think, has to do with the material that is required to play the game. Like you can't upscale the magic of the gathering cards. The cards are just the cards. Like they don't. They don't make the set. That's made out of walnut. You know that Right, it's just I don't know if that has anything to do with it, but I mean like, yeah, I can't imagine what a fancy magic the gathering gathering would be like. As opposed to yeah you can make chess.

Doug: 49:18

What a wonderful, grammatically correct sentence well, and uh, we're obviously veering off into other territory talking about magic, but that is an interesting thing because it is Magic. The Gathering, the collectible card game, yeah, yeah, yeah, there's something very consumer about that game as well, which is you gotta keep buying the cards to make the best deck possible, whereas Backgammon was once drawn in the dirt and now we take this set.

Doug: 49:45

that is luxury, you can play it anywhere and I think part of the allure. You can take this set. That is luxury, you can play it anywhere and I think part of the allure and again, this goes with it. Obviously, what I'm describing right now is it becomes a fad in the 60s and 70s as something that is celebrity. If you could see Mick Jagger playing, I mean, it's like product placement right.

Doug: 50:04

Like if they're playing it everybody should be playing it, but it's also not anyone's product, correct? That's what's interesting about this to me is it's not necessarily selling something. It becomes you are a backgammon player, which suggests something about you, and what I find interesting about this is it's popped up in all of these different centuries as something that we will go. We went from Legionnaires playing it to Mick Jagger's go game in the back for you.

Don: 50:29

You know like, and it's like I.

Doug: 50:30

I'm just fascinated by this because you know, again, there's also a famous image of Lucille ball, like with a cigarette, like screaming, and like looking across the room, cause she was such a huge fan of playing it Tournaments are named after her that it is fun enough that the celebrity elites are wanting to do this, cause they want to gamble, blossom steam and do something that's fun. But it is kind of sexy enough that it's like I want to be a part of that. We should get a backgammon set for the house and I think that's why it's still around, at least in the cultural contemporary, is it's kind of an offshoot from this time and I'm trying to trace this history like yeah, because I mean backgammon is, but boil it down to its essence and it's really not a very exciting game.

Don: 51:14

No Like it's the same every time you play.

Ron: 51:17

Play chess.

Doug: 51:18

Yeah.

Don: 51:19

Like it's the same game over and over again, and sometimes the numbers fall your way and sometimes they don't, and it's not like you know oh, that was the best game, backgammon ever Like they all kind of have the same tone.

Don: 51:29

Yeah, right, and so when you're describing the history of the Romans playing the game and then like when they start to wither, that it's not really picked up by their servants, but if the game doesn't go away, and why is that? And so I'm thinking right, there's a little bit of a sense in some game history that aristocrats like strategy games and Backgammon is definitely a game of strategy but lower classes like Games of Luck that you don't have to know as much and you don't have to have education In Backgammon. You don't even have to know how to read to play Backgammon, you only have to know your numbers to play Backgammon, you only have to know your numbers. To play backgammon, you just count the numbers on the die. So it has, like this crossover of it has access for the aristocrats and interesting levels of strategy, but also access to lower classes that are looking for entertainment that is just based on luck are looking for entertainment that is just based on luck and what.

Doug: 52:36

This is kind of like the final piece of information that is brought to us in this book. But, um, bridge players who have, and mathematicians, uh, and there's crossover because it's very much statistical analysis. What ends up apparently like the peak of backgammon gaming was in 1984, 1985 tournaments in Monte Carlo. You can still go on YouTube and like see footage like hours long of just how high class this, this is at the time and what ends up killing it and and bringing this out is bridge players and mathematicians from colleges invade these tournaments because the money becomes so big, like we're looking at half a million excuse me, half a million dollars at a tournament. These mathematicians invade and what happens is is they are sitting on turns after a role for sometimes up to a half hour. Like they will sit there and analyze every permutation of everything that they can do before they make a decision and they do not. It's just killing the, the idea of this fund that is associated there. Um, and so there's a steady decline that happens after that and backgammon kind of starts to fade into obscurity again because the the over analysts kind of take over the fun element that you're talking about right there. Math ruins everything. It does seem to it really does. Um, it's important for budgeting and uh, but that seems to be. You know um it and budgets aren't fun. Just to in case our listeners didn't know, um, so I think you might be right there.

Doug: 54:04

If once that magic is taken away and now it's just simple statistical analysis of I have a 32 chance, the next game that pops up as being the most popular, especially amongst gambling circles, is texas hold'em. And still to this day, texas hold'em generally is the number one gambling game, at least for public perception that exists. And uh, yeah, backgammon kind of falls into decline. And so Don you kind of hit on this of what is the magic that holds this thing that I again it.

Doug: 54:35

It would be a fad if I could attach it to a decade. Even if I could attach it to a hundred years, I would still consider it a fad. But it's popped up so many times, from being a game that you can inscribe in the dirt and we find an ancient Mesopotamia, so I mean, essentially it's as old as myth, right? And now it's still here, popping up in different variations, with a different color, and then here I am, you know, playing it with my wife before we go to bed. It's fascinating to me that it would show up in all of these different ways.

Ron: 55:06

I guess there's like a certain this seems like the things that survive for a very long time have some sort of fundamental distill in some effective, simplistic, seemingly simplistic way, like a fundamental human fascination or, uh, you know, like certain stories, right, you can, you can take, uh, you know, these story tropes or uh arcs, uh reoccur across all cultures right across time because they distill some sort of human question, fascination, obsession, into story form and they just sort of appeal to all people. And I think, games people have always played games, I think, once they had the time to stop surviving and play games because, uh, our brains, I think, are very like, oriented towards problem solving, yep, and then we were talking about the competition element. You know the, I guess for me, competition just adds a stake, it adds a reason to play right. The reason is sometimes it applies to her tickles, a person's ego right or their uh a person's ego right or their uh sense of getting better at something right, an accomplishment of some degree.

Ron: 56:11

and so, yeah, it seems like backgammon, like you said, probably not the most fun game that's ever been made, but simplistic enough that you can the greatest game of all time simplistic enough that you can play it, like you said, anywhere, right, uh has, uh, like there's probably also something that should be not overlooked, but like a kind of imperialist history that has carried it to different reaches of the globe right and it's kind of planted the seed in all these different places. Right, you mentioned the two bit like rome and britain people that love this so of course it wound up everywhere, right yeah um and so like there's that kind of sort of material element to it.

Ron: 56:48

How did it actually get there? I'm sure there are more fun games in backgammon, but they have been lost right, but it's that there's a democratic element in it.

Don: 56:56

So the idea you're talking about the trope like, so what's the trope of backgammon? Right? That that, as a as a lower class person, that would attract me to this game.

Don: 57:04

Well, it's that I can win the game yeah, yeah, yeah right yeah, and you take any joe, blow off the street and you put them up against a regular chess player. Doesn't have to be a champion chess player, just a regular chess player. Like they're not going to win that game, yeah. But in backgammon you like you've mentioned earlier doug like you can go up against the most famous, most successful backgammon player and they will have the bad day on the dice and the game flips the other way yeah, and what a heroic moment and you can turn the tables on them yeah look at him.

Doug: 57:33

Look at him and something it's interesting you brought up, like the imperialist bent on it, and something that I definitely should have mentioned earlier is area that it is most popular and still today, like iran, israel, like these areas that like centered around, like probably where the spread of ancient Mesopotamia, like the the game, is still most popular, where it's it's ancient roots are, and I find that also really interesting too, that that's like it's a cultural standpoint, um, for them as well, and so it, yeah, it's just cause we haven't brought them cribbage yet.

Doug: 58:09

Good luck buddy. Good luck Cause bad gam is what it's at Teach the GIs cribbage.

Ron: 58:14

That's right yeah.

Doug: 58:18

The classic two play. Yeah, Sitting across the table, two players just be able to battle it out with a couple of small pieces and a board shape. It's just as simple as it is, as grandma's it might seem from the beginning of this. I'm just. I find it fascinating that, yeah, you can bring anybody into it and, uh, it creates this dynamic that is universal to life experience.

Don: 58:39

Yeah, Very cool.

Doug: 58:42

Thank you so much for letting me wax a bit on a backgammon and hopefully this starts the revival. I'm looking forward to seeing across the world the next great revival of backgammon and hopefully this starts the revival. I'm looking forward to seeing across the world the next great revival of backgammon uh, in homes, pubs.

Don: 58:56

We need to start it. It needs to be the uncannery backgammon extravaganza in NASA.

Doug: 59:02

Look at with fondue and beehive hair, hair dues and cigarettes on canna con Look out for your customized Uncannery backgammon set with all of our faces plastered on it in order to continue to raise money from there. But thank you, gentlemen, thank you, doug, thank you.