Don: 0:26

Hello, hello everybody. Welcome back to the Uncannery season two of the Uncannery Big two. I'm Don, I'm Ron, I'm Doug, and we're here again. So how was your weekend, everybody?

Ron: 0:41

Oh my gosh, such an incredible weekend. It was the first weekend of October. That means Halloween is coming up. Can I get a woof, woof.

Doug: 0:50

No, because Halloween's not about dogs. It's about cats typically, which I'm very excited about.

Don: 0:56

It's about dogs. It's about werewolves. Those are big dogs.

Doug: 1:00

A traditional cat gets its due finally, especially black cats.

Don: 1:07

Was that the sound your cat makes? It's such a great cat.

Doug: 1:10

It's really ferocious. Is your cat dead already? No, it's last breath. Thanks for the life. It's so dumb.

Don: 1:21

Have you picked out your Halloween costumes yet?

Doug: 1:24

I have yeah, I'm planning on. I have a partner in crime when it comes to teaching that we have like similar sections and he's kind of doing a punk rocker theme and so I'm going to go goth rock and we're going to kind of so. There's like a little bit of similarity but a little bit of rivalry too across the hallway.

Don: 1:44

Yeah, so you're going to do the eyeliner and everything I was thinking about that.

Doug: 1:48

I've got a Sisters of Mercy shirt. I've got some giant leather boots that I used for a pro wrestling outfit last year, but they're going to be reappropriated. And then, yeah, black pants, eyeliner, wig we should be good.

Ron: 2:01

You got to get the wig, though wig we should be good. Yeah, you gotta get the wig bill. I've also been um co-opted by co-workers who have created a theme for me, and the theme they went with is, uh, the the pixar film. Inside out, um, but um like, which is a film about emotions and the characters are all very sort of distinct.

Ron: 2:21

You're gonna be bing bong. That's exactly who I'm going to be, Because everyone took all the notable characters. And I did a quick look on Amazon and there is like an atrocious Bing Bong costume and I've only seen this film once and I think I vaguely remember who Bing Bong is. But he's like an elephant who's a hobo and that's kind of me that works.

Doug: 2:43

Elephant hobo. No Descri who's a hobo, and that's kind of me that works.

Ron: 2:48

Elephant hobo describes you. Yeah, I fell asleep in that movie. I don't think I fell asleep, I just don't remember that much. I think it was. It was like clever. I think it was like pixar's films now are just like so the metaphor is so on the nose. Yeah, like just so transparent. Yeah, it's like the metaphor is the film the next movie's gonna be called metaphor, a film about something else.

Doug: 3:11

Coming to a theater to you, yeah that'll be fun.

Ron: 3:17

Yeah, but nothing spooky, I guess donna you have a spooky costume and story.

Don: 3:20

You're gonna be an alien or something I'm gonna be the invisible man because you're gonna be in bermuda, turn the lights off and pretend that we don't live here, but I, I used to. If you caught me in my youth, I, I would, uh, I would definitely have been, uh, dressing up with the, uh, the monster, makeup and makeup and uh and stuff.

Ron: 3:43

What was? What was everyone's scariest costume they ever had?

Doug: 3:46

Okay, I need to think Don do you have that?

Don: 3:49

Well, my, my go-to was was the standard. So it involved I had to make rice every year. So you make rice with coffee grounds. It makes it kind of maggoty looking, um and and I could glue that on my face with some liquid latex so it kind of looked like a big old maggoty pustule popping out my face. So that was my go-to with a Renaissance shaggy peasant outfit.

Ron: 4:14

That was sick. You're like a. I'm the black plague victim.

Don: 4:17

Yeah, kind of yeah.

Ron: 4:20

Mine was a Dilophosaurus. What? Yeah, tell us about that he's the dinosaur in jurassic park that spits at.

Ron: 4:28

Uh, newman um, oh, yeah, yeah but I found this mask in the halloween store and I thought that was so cool and it was just the head of the dinosaur and then like two gloves for his talent hands and that was it, and so I think I just wore like a green, like camp, summer camp t-shirt, walked around like a dinosaur did you have? Does it have the frill? No, I didn't have the frills, just the head. You just walked around. You just spit at people. Um, honestly, I probably spit on myself more because the late I found out a latex mask is freaking awful and hot and I was just like drooling and sweaty and I think probably only lasted two hours before I took it off I don't know if it was my scariest, but I'm thinking of this since you said latex mask, because last year I was uh, mankind is the name of this uh, professional wrestling.

Doug: 5:18

uh, I'm gonna say identity, because the wrestler is mick foley, but he had like several different wrestlers that he played. He was cactus jack dude Sometimes he would literally just go by Mick Foley, but then he created this character that he was best known for, which was mankind, um, which was this uh, he had a leather mask that was kind of stripped together over his face, a tie and a ripped white a tie and a ripped white collar kind of shirt and brown pants, wrestling boots, and I think the commentary was like the disturbing nature of mankind, because he's like an office worker, but he's also kind of leather face, but he's also it's like this is mankind, this is what we've been stripped to.

Ron: 6:02

I'm not even sure uh, I saw american psycho, yeah, so you're scary.

Don: 6:06

I can pixar this costume was a scary wrestler yeah, I think so.

Doug: 6:10

Okay, I think it qualifies. Yeah, it did freak a lot of people out. They're like oh, god, that's mankind.

Ron: 6:15

Yeah, that's, that's who we are. Oh god, that's a shallow and terrifying reflection of myself.

Doug: 6:22

Metaphor was not on the nose. I was so bummed out by Pixar movies.

Don: 6:26

I went let's go back to the classics, right there.

Doug: 6:28

Somebody saw me, though, and they said are you, are you a dominatrix? No, definitely not. They just saw leather and immediately thought that, and then the boots, and I think that that was what did it, and then they gave you the box of raisins anyway.

Don: 6:50

So yeah, I think that'd be my pick for now. I'm trying to think of other ones, but yeah, that's probably it. Well, I uh, I actually want to talk to y'all about, um, about spooky things today. So, since it's our, it's perfect ron, are you gonna be okay?

Ron: 6:59

uh, yeah, I'll be fine.

Don: 7:00

All right, you can hold him, it's okay, okay. Eyesight will close her to Doug hey buddy, are you familiar with the story of the Legend of Sleepy Hollow by Washington Irving? Have you heard that one before? Have you read that before? Ooh, johnny Depp.

Doug: 7:16

Yeah, that's the only point of reference.

Ron: 7:19

I think there's also a cartoon I may have seen, like in elementary school it's a famous disney cartoon classic.

Doug: 7:25

Yeah to be fair, um, I haven't read it. I I'm aware that it is literary work first, um, but I actually I do love the. Is it 99? When that came out, 1999, sleep, I don't know, man did. I love it, really absolutely loved it.

Don: 7:41

So I'm I remember having a different reaction, but I did too.

Doug: 7:47

I loved it. I yeah, I enjoyed the Christopher Walken's character. I thought like his design was like really creepy and I love the headless horseman. I thought that they did a good job with the design specifically story I can't remember.

Ron: 8:03

Ron, are you familiar With the legend?

Don: 8:07

Not, tremendously, not, no more. So you ever, you ever read it no, I've never read it, is it?

Ron: 8:11

uh, who steven something? Who's? Who's the author?

Doug: 8:14

washington washington steven irving steven to his friends. Denmark put anything in there.

Don: 8:25

Well, okay, what do you know about the story Before?

Ron: 8:31

we get to the part I want to share with you. Ichabod Crane is in love with a woman and he's a scaredy cat, and so everyone makes fun of him. That's true. And then there's something with a headless horse. Does he become the headless horseman?

Don: 8:48

I think he's hunted by him. So you know that the headless horseman is a is a feature in this, in this legend is yeah, all right, it's the cool part, right, all right, yeah, well, I want to.

Don: 8:52

I want to read you a passage from from the, the, the original story by washington irving. That's kind of setting up the scene. So this is before anything has happened. This is just sort of to to introduce it, doesn't? It's not the very beginning, but it's towards the beginning of the and it's describing the main character, who's Ichabod Crane, who's the schoolmaster of the glen where they live, and it's describing, kind of his pastime.

Don: 9:19

So here's how it goes. Another of his sources of fearful pleasure was to pass long winter evenings with the old dutch wives as they sat spinning by the fire with a row of apples roasting and spluttering along the hearth, and listen to their marvelous tales of ghosts and goblins and haunted fields and haunted brooks and haunted bridges and haunted houses, and particularly of the headless horsemen, or galloping Hessian of the hollow, as they sometimes called him. He would delight them equally by his anecdotes of witchcraft and of the direful omens and portentous sights and sounds in the air which prevailed in the earlier times of Connecticut and would frighten them woefully with speculations upon comets and shooting stars and with the alarming fact that the world did absolutely turn round and that they were half the time topsy-turvy. But if there was a pleasure in all this, while snugly cuddling in the chimney corner of a chamber that was all of a ruddy glow from the crackling wood fire and where, of course, no spectre dared to show his face, it was dearly purchased by the terrors of his subsequent walk homewards.

Don: 10:34

What fearful shapes and shadows beset his path amidst the dim and ghastly glare of the snowy night.

Don: 10:42

With what wistful look did he eye every trembling ray of light streaming across the waste fields from some distant window.

Don: 10:50

How often was he appalled by some shrub covered with snow which, like a sheeted specter, beset his very path. How often did he shrink with curdling awe at the sound of his own steps on the frosty crust beneath his feet and dread to look over his shoulder lest he should behold some uncouth being tramping close behind him? And how often was he thrown into complete dismay by some rushing blast howling among the trees, in the idea that it was the galloping Hessian on one of his nightly scourings? All these, however, were mere terrors of the night, phantoms of the mind that walk in darkness. And though he had seen many specters in his time and been more than once beset by Satan in diverse shapes in his lonely perambulations, yet daylight put an end to all these evils and he would have passed a pleasant life of it, in despite of the devil and all his works, if his path had not been crossed by a being that causes more perplexity to mortal man than ghosts, goblins and the whole race of witches put together, and that was.

Don: 12:06

The Headless horseman, I'm going to stop there. Yeah, okay. Reactions.

Doug: 12:13

Thoughts. Really beautiful description of the fear of the dark.

Ron: 12:17

Yeah, that was great. He's reading to the Dutch wives, right? We all love a Dutch wife Especially in groups what's the?

Don: 12:25

We all love a Dutch wife, especially in groups Like what's the group noun for a Dutch wife.

Ron: 12:30

A windmill of Dutch wives.

Doug: 12:32

Really kind of stereotypical there, all right.

Ron: 12:35

A low country of Dutch wives? Was he startling them with tales of science?

Don: 12:43

Yeah, there was Like oh God, the world is round. Yeah, it was Exactly right, so it was. They were startled to find out that they were upside down sometimes and that there's shooting stars.

Doug: 12:54

Makes sense.

Don: 12:55

Yeah.

Doug: 12:56

Satan was brought into it. I heard that yeah.

Don: 12:59

And I wanted to talk a little bit about. So why does he so? He goes specifically to hear these stories that the Dutch wives are telling about ghosts and haunted houses and haunted bridges and haunted glens, and he seems to enjoy them, but on the way home the enjoyment seems to wane a little bit.

Ron: 13:22

Yeah, yeah, because that's when uh his his mind is is running amok with all of these tales. Right On the way home, I feel like, uh, this is uh frequently something I hear, like um, from my wife, who enjoys watching horror films with me until the moment when the film is over, and then she's like we have to plan when we can watch these films.

Ron: 13:43

Yep, um, because if we have to go to a bed within the next hour or three hours, then she's like I'm just that's gonna ruin me, I'm just gonna be up all night thinking about the film, whatever and because of the, because of the cinematic qualities of the film or definitely not in an analytical way in that, if it was successfully uh, startling and horrific then now her mind, her imagination, like ichabod's will, will be a light at every slightest imaginary provocation yeah, nikki has a very strong rule that it must be daylight outside, and this perfectly fits with the tale, but must be daylight outside.

Doug: 14:18

If we're even going to consider a horror film, if we're even gonna touch on that, it's gotta be daylight outside, which, during october.

Ron: 14:28

I do marathon horror movies, so it's tough for me yeah, and I don't want to act like I'm any cooler about this. I also would prefer to watch a horror movie, like in the light of day, but I'm just like, uh, um, like I can't say that out loud so yeah, yeah, yeah let's watch that movie in the dark. It's cool, it's fine I'm never, I'm never going to say otherwise.

Don: 14:47

You're like let's invite 15 people over, though, yeah, and let's have a bunch of pizza xbox on the other several breaks yeah, that's right why why does it matter what time it is or what the status of the sunrise is?

Ron: 15:04

Because there are real horrors or things like. I feel predisposed to fear things right, and I think some people are maybe better at conquering those fears or paying them less heed. There's certainly some things that, like you know, don't scare me, that probably scare other people, things that do scare me more. We were talking about roller coasters the other day. I hate a roller coaster. I can't get on a roller coaster. I've been on a roller coaster, I've had fun on a roller coaster, I totally get why people do it and I still just have very little motivation to go on a roller coaster because of a fear like a, a mostly unfounded but not impossible. Uh, chance that that I don't come back from that roller coaster?

Doug: 15:44

yeah, um, the night is where the unimaginable happens, right, I mean, even just nothing is illuminated for you in the same way, but the same things can happen, of course, but your mind is going to conjure something that's far more terrible than what you can actually see. We love that concrete evidence of what we can see in front of us. You know that science like I, can use my senses to actually explore there. It's why horror films are often so dark or, you know, in not only their uh content, but also like lighting. That's very rare, except for midsummer, if you guys have seen.

Doug: 16:29

That's the only horror movie I've ever seen. That's incredibly bright almost the whole way through, but yeah generally.

Don: 16:36

Well, do you want to know why this might be? You want to talk a little bit about what's going on inside your brain, that maybe we can dig into this a little bit first. First of all, do you know what it was that was more frightening to Ichabod than all of the ogres witches put together, the ghosts, the goblins, satan?

Doug: 16:52

Satan was in there somewhere, I said. I said the headless horseman, but I don't think he's introduced yet.

Don: 16:56

So I was going to say the dog yeah, he says uh by to all the devils in his works, of his path had not been crossed by a being.

Doug: 17:11

That causes more perplexity to mortal man than ghosts, goblins and the whole race of witches put together. And that was a woman oh, he's in love.

Don: 17:14

Yeah, he's so awkward, yeah. So some things never been there.

Ron: 17:18

There's a whole online community of ichabods. Stay tuned for the next podcast where we're on on that.

Doug: 17:27

The problems with men online.

Don: 17:34

Anyway. So, speaking of fear, response and sensory data, so here's what goes on in your brain. Your brain's got two paths for fear processing, and we'll call them the low path and the high path, just to keep them straight. All right. So low path is that your senses sense something, so sight usually sounds.

Ron: 17:56

I hear a sound. I hear a wolf on the distance, on the moors.

Don: 18:01

And your thalamus is kind of like the part of your brain that's like the telephone directory, like it sends the information to the right part of the brain and it sends that information directly to the amygdala, which is an almond-shaped organ kind of in the base of your brain and it's kind of I think it's like your lizard brain, yeah, and so the amygdala can take that response or take that data and say, oh my gosh, there's something to be afraid of. And it immediately will trigger responses which include signaling other parts of your brain to release cortisol, which is the stress hormone, to release adrenaline to get your, your, your face pumping and or your, your heart pumping, and, and that all happens without thinking.

Don: 18:46

Like that's the response when, like you open the cupboard and there's a spider or whatever, and like you jump back and you haven't had time to process even what you've seen. That response is why it's called the low path. It's the pre-cortical path. It bypasses the conscious part of your brain and it just reacts to it. And there's three possible reactions. Do you know what they are?

Ron: 19:08

Fight Flight, flight, fright. No, there is a third one. What is it Fright?

Doug: 19:17

Well, let's check. If the first two are correct, that's good.

Don: 19:19

So fight is correct, and fight means that you can.

Ron: 19:24

You can punch it, you can bite it, you can kick it. Defeat the thing you're afraid of.

Don: 19:29

Your amygdala thinks that you can kill whatever or defeat whatever's in front of you. You can switch the bug and flight is correct. That means you run away, run away.

Doug: 19:44

The other one is if this was a computer, rpg would be dialogue.

Don: 19:46

You can persuade the thing to not be scary yeah, freeze is, the is the third one yeah, um, and I think we see it more in in other animals, but it is, it is available as a response so is free supposed to be a sort of a like a period analysis?

Ron: 20:02

Is it like more info required?

Don: 20:03

No, I mean so that happens during the period of freeze, but the freeze response they think could be related to. So one of the purposes of the freeze response is to avoid predation, so especially like it's a Jurassic.

Doug: 20:18

Park movie.

Don: 20:18

Right, if you stay still then the predator won't see you as much or like cows, you know just right.

Ron: 20:24

No, I don't I don't work with cows they're constantly in a prey state.

Don: 20:30

It's so sad but I've seen them like you have. I have seen it in humans, but it usually happens like it responds to a loud noise, like because you just freeze for a second, and then it does give you the time to process what's going on.

Doug: 20:42

It's the does that mean the uh? Are we familiar with fainting goat syndrome? Yeah, Is that like the most overdeveloped freeze response of all time, cause it is loud noises. Yeah, that's exactly what it is.

Ron: 20:54

Is that also the possum you know playing dead? Is that an evolved freeze Like oh it is, yeah, yeah. Evolved freeze like oh it is, yeah, yeah, it's the same thing.

Don: 21:01

Yeah, yeah. So that's the low path, that's the like big danger, immediate, you don't have to think about it, your brain reacts Okay. Then we have what's called the cortical path, or the higher, the high path, so similar process. You get some kind of stimulus information from your sensory organs, goes to the thalamus, who then, rather than sending it to the amygdala, sends it to the cortex, sends it to the part of your brain that is conscious and can evaluate the danger. The cortex also then connects to the amygdala. So if it is dangerous, then the cortex can send the same fear signals to the amygdala and cause the same fear responses. It just happens a little bit slower because that first step has to happen, where your brain processes the danger to determine, hey, I'm, I need to do something, and then the amygdala does the same fear responses.

Ron: 21:53

So one uh, in one of those we get a an opportunity to think or rationalize what our response will be. And then the other one is it's a sort of immediate, and I think that explains actually a lot of the problem like uh, I enjoy watching horror films, but usually alone or with, just like my wife or like one other friend or something like. I can't do them in groups.

Ron: 22:13

My friends used to be like let's all go out to the horror movie and I was like, no, I don't want it, I'm too scared. But really what I, what I was afraid of was not being able to control when I'm afraid. That's why I don't like the jump scare or the sudden. I fear that low path, the fact that for an instant I will be reduced to a base creature and I will not have mastery over myself and I will react in a potentially silly way, A way that will seem silly in hindsight.

Doug: 22:43

So you're worried about the shame? Yes, a hundred percent.

Don: 22:45

Yeah, yeah, yeah. The shame of just the biological evolution of your brain, like that's nothing to be ashamed of Absolutely.

Ron: 22:51

I know, I know, but uh, that's where, that's where I'm coming from right now, or I have you fixed me now, don let's go watch. Terrifier.

Doug: 23:03

Oh my gosh.

Don: 23:05

So, though, if we go back and thinking to, to Ichabod, right Like which one of those paths is operating in Ichabod's situation?

Ron: 23:13

Oh, the high path right when he's walking at night.

Don: 23:15

Yeah. Because there's nothing there to be afraid of. The things that he's noticing are shadows and bushes and A shrub that I almost laughed really hard during that part but have you had that experience?

Doug: 23:26

absolutely right yeah, absolutely yeah, I remember that. My um are we familiar with? Uh, tales from the crypt the character. For any listeners who don't know, it was a very cool show. Um, that, because I was too young to watch I there was a lot of very adult content in them. A lot of the time you know where they'd have some scandalous things because it came from pulp comics.

Doug: 23:49

But I was allowed to watch a lot of times the intros to the show in which the crypt keeper, who was this decrepit like, basically a decaying corpse like, who talked in a very high voice and had a high pitch laugh. He would introduce the shows and I was fascinated with him as a kid, but he really scared the hell out of me, like it. It just the the way that he was animated and propped up and there was one night classic. My parents are going to watch tales from the crypt. Watch the introduction so embarrassing. Yeah, this one is for me. This was really embarrassing. Watch the introduction, go to bed. I'm thinking about him and, of course, outside of outside of my window, I just hear and I'm thinking it's him walking outside of my room. I've watched this too many times. He's come for me now what I later found out it was my dad stepping outside to just let the dog out to go to the bathroom.

Doug: 24:47

But in that moment I got so scared I froze and this is why this is relative. I froze literally to the point that I thought I cannot move. He's going to be here and I can't move. I took a breath in as quickly as I could because I was like having a panic attack and I went and then ran out of my bed Cause I thought if I've got enough speed he can't get me.

Doug: 25:08

I fling myself into my parents' office at the time, completely out of breath, and all I could get out was grip keepers gonna get me and then just fell down and passed out. I couldn't go from there. That was it. Um, there was that much fear in that moment, um, and now all of that was created. But yeah, it's interesting that you talked about the different paths because, like I kind of experienced almost all of those stages. Like there's a little bit of fight in terms of like, if I run or run, if I run right now he can't get me, but I've got to get out of this frozen stage so why did you watch him then?

Doug: 25:47

I just had to, I just I liked him so much I.

Doug: 25:52

I always had this fascination. I remember going, like again walking around in blockbuster with my dad because he would watch horror movies and I'd ask him about every single one of them. I think there was like a certain amount of danger that I was like I wanted to be around. You know of like, oh, this is really creepy, I should be able to handle this. Dad, did you see this one? And I was, of course, always so impressed, like you watch that too, and that one as well. You must be so brave. Uh yeah, I was always obsessed with, um, yeah, kind of horror icons. I always loved the world. I still do.

Don: 26:22

I'd like absolutely love horror, but when I was younger, so when the cryptkeeper was on your tv and you were watching him to do his monologue.

Doug: 26:30

Yeah, was that scary it was, my heart would start pounding a lot faster. But then there's a little bit of like. My parents thought I could handle it so I'd go. I yep, I got it because I wanted to see him and do his thing. There was also a cartoon on at the time, so there was like a kid's cartoon version of him as well, and so that was where a lot of the fascination started, cause it was like a four kids version and so maybe that was there. But yeah, I wanted to be kind of close to it, I wanted to be just close enough.

Don: 26:57

So was it scary when he was on tv, or was it scarier when you were in your room?

Doug: 27:00

I guess it's scarier when I'm in my room because I'm creating another. What if he did this?

Ron: 27:07

you know, even though yeah, well, at least when he's on the tv he's contained by the tv right and, like you don't know, you know what the script demands he will do next, right, so he might shock you in that moment or something, right? But at least you can rationalize. This is all projected onto a screen, right? But? As soon as you, if you, if you carry that with you from the screen, and now you're going about your day now he can be anywhere. He can be anywhere.

Doug: 27:30

Showing up in my closet going hey kiddies?

Don: 27:32

Yeah, exactly that's what he sounded like.

Doug: 27:37

I, I, I do an okay impression of him. Yeah, I like him.

Don: 27:41

Well, what you're describing actually has a distinction that others have described. So I want to share with you a little bit from a writer named Anne Radcliffe. So she's a 1700s English author famous for Gothic literature, which is famous for being the first type of scary stories that we have right. So her, the Italian is, is one of hers. The Mysteries of Udolpho is another one, that which basically is, like you know, scary castle on a crag and yeah, is there like a thing?

Ron: 28:15

I've read the Italian, but is there like a theme that kind of connects her works, Like like what? What is the kind of horror she's interested in?

Don: 28:23

well, well, I don't want to tell you because because I know ron because it has to do with this piece that I'm gonna, that I'm going to quote first, which is also a fictional piece, but it it's non-fiction. It's non-fiction written as a dialogue, so, and it's called on this, on the supernatural and poetry. So it's a made-up dialogue between two persons about what is scary and uh, and one of them is bringing up the part that, um, that sublimity, so this idea that something is overwhelming is one of the sources of fear, which goes back to edmund burke, which we talked about last time time, before, a couple times, yes, anyways, um, so one of the person says they must be very men of very cold imaginations, with whom certainty is more terrible than surmise.

Don: 29:10

Terror and horror are so far opposite that the first expands the soul and awakens the faculties to a higher degree of life. The other contracts, freezes and nearly annihilates them. So the distinction being made is whether what you're being afraid of is in front of you, which is horrible, or something that you are imagining, something that is less certain, something that is vague in its description, or its access to you that seems to be of a higher level, and that's why he says, expands the soul, and that would be called terror. So there's making a distinction between terror, which is basically your imagination, and horror, which is an external stimulator. Responding to oh yeah.

Ron: 29:55

I uh, I like that a lot, um, because one I think that describes Doug earlier you asked, like I don't know why I was so interested in it and I have also always had a hard time, like I do really love like horror literature, horror films, like engaging with terrifying media, even though I would consider myself like rather ichabod about these sorts of things.

Ron: 30:22

Um, but there is always sort of hold, a sort of fascination, and I think when, when you encounter a really good piece of uh, horror media, whether that's a novel or a film or whatever, it does have a sort of um, I don't know, I've always to to a degree with enlargening or or increasing my awareness of something like it's hard to like. Sublimity is kind of what she's get with Radcliffe is getting at Right and I think there is that measure to it as well. Right, like when we encounter the sublime, um, there is a sort of terror aspect, but I don't consider it negative, is a sort of terror aspect, but I don't consider it negative. In fact, I find it an emotion or an experience I seek like that I enjoy.

Doug: 31:07

Yeah, there, uh, there's a video game that was, I believe, just re-released last night Um, that is from when I was much younger called, uh, silent Hill, and this is the second Silent Hill.

Doug: 31:18

So Silent Hill 2 is remastered.

Doug: 31:20

It's considered a staple classic of the horror genre in video games and I think 90% of the reason that that game gets the credit it does for how horrific it is is everything is covered in a layer of fog that you cannot see but four to five feet in front of you and you have a radio on you at all times.

Doug: 31:43

That starts to kind of echo static when something is in the fog that is going to come after you. And it's interesting that both of those things, like radio static and fog are both kind of like it's it's. It's interesting Cause I look at them as cognates, visually and audibly, like I look at them as the exact same thing in some, in some respects, and I think that those very much rely on the terror of what it could be, because generally I think in like the first sequence of the game, you're fighting the same type of enemy over and over again and they didn't really need to design another type of enemy because the second you hear that radio go off and you know it's close. You always think but what if it's bigger than the last one I saw?

Doug: 32:26

and that's what carries you through the entire game. It's like that never stops feeling that way and that's why I think it's such a classic um, and I think that relies a lot on terror, because you do eventually see the things and it gets into horror.

Ron: 32:38

But that it's very terrifying, but the terror and horror are separated by the unknown right the what we do not know becomes the, the, the realm of terror, correct, and what we see in front of us is the realm of horror right, because terror is activated by your imagination so it's your magic, your imagination, building what it is that you are afraid of, as opposed to something that you're actually encountering.

Ron: 33:04

Oh, I think that that unknown factor is what Radcliffe would I mean. I don't know if this is exact, but what Radcliffe says is uh, what was her exact word? She said it's uplifting or something.

Don: 33:16

Expands the soul. Expands the soul Right.

Ron: 33:18

Expansive Right. Iands the soul right. Expansive right I think the unknown must be that quality that gives it that expansive property right yeah.

Doug: 33:28

Oh, all I was going to add is I was curious about the idea of do I have it right that if something is like enshrouded in fog and the you know, like the static going off, eventually you see the thing Would, we can still consider that terror? Or because I can see the fog and hear the noise? It does it require 100% imagination in this way? Does that make sense?

Don: 33:51

No, no, I think if you're seeing through the fog and you see a figure through the fog, it's still terrible because I don't know what. Like I created something there, but I'm not sure what it is.

Ron: 34:02

Intention and motive and detail are what held for you.

Doug: 34:07

We had the definition straight because, yeah, there's a really interesting line where the terror becomes horror in that game, where you do see everything so and it's not as scary anymore.

Don: 34:16

So, to circle back to your question about the thread running through Radcliffe's work, so I think it is this reliant, not reliance, this emphasis on the unknown and the uncertain. So, um, one of the one of the the schticks for lack of a better word that she utilizes in the mysteries of udolpho is is this painting that is supposed to be so horrible that that it's covered with a veil? And the owner of the castle, like, keeps it covered. And nobody's supposed to be so horrible that that it's covered with a veil? And the owner of the castle, like, keeps it covered and nobody's supposed to look at it and nobody's supposed to see it.

Don: 34:46

And, um and uh, emily, who's the main character of the story, is in the castle and she's being led around by one of the maids, and the maids like, oh no, I don't, I don't even know, I haven't heard anything about it, but don't look over, there have to, you know, emphasizing that that this is something that we're not supposed to do. We're not supposed to. So emily, later, um, sneaks back into the room and, uh, it says that she passed on, with faltering steps and, having paused a moment at the door before she attempted to open it, she then hastily entered the chamber and went towards the picture, which appeared to be enclosed in a frame of uncommon size that hung in a dark part of the room. She paused again and then, with a timid hand, lifted the veil, but instantly let it fall, perceiving that what it had concealed was no picture, and before she could leave the chamber, she dropped, setless, senseless, on the floor.

Don: 35:34

So even in that, like we, the main character has an experience and we're left in the dark yeah, yeah and, and it just builds on that mystery over and over again throughout the text as it leads up to that, that they're building on that terror idea.

Ron: 35:49

I think this is also why people have such sort of uh vehement reactions to uh a horror film that ends or like functions on a twist that they don't find satisfactory, and this is, I think, explains the whole sort of outrage against m night shamalan at some point right famous horror film director who you know, really hit it out of the park with a couple good ones, but then sort of became considered a little more camp as his twist sort of became more contrived.

Ron: 36:20

Right, because almost all of them function on a sort of imperfect, uh, sense of what is happening and going on. That creates an eerie and mysterious and, um, enthralling sort of atmosphere. But then, as soon as the twist happens, if that twist doesn't like whatever's behind that veil of that picture, if we find out and it does not match what I imagined, I'm gonna be mad, right, or if it's less, intense less.

Don: 36:44

I remember the like signs was that was that for me right, like, like the, but actually this you bring up a good point and this is kind of where the, the seed of this episode, comes from, because doug and I were talking, um about the movie a quiet place, yeah and uh, and I loved the movie a quiet place when it came out.

Don: 37:05

Um but I didn't see a quiet place too, and and I, I, I just I knew I didn't want to, but I hadn't really thought about it until um Doug asked me about it and and what?

Doug: 37:16

I told you, right, and then you hadn't thought this all the way through but I told you that I liked a quiet place because you don't see the monster. Yeah, it's always. If you do, it's part of it and it's.

Don: 37:30

It's moving at a speed that you can't yeah, absolutely. And then the trailers for a quiet place, too, like they were everywhere, and I didn't want seeing a quiet place, too, to ruin my experience of a quiet place yeah, but absolutely and, and now that I have all of these terms straight like. So what I I liked about a quiet place was that it raised that terror.

Doug: 37:48

It expanded my soul, it terrified you it did instead of horrified you right where the quiet place.

Don: 37:54

Two would would, I think, sink it because it because horror is at a different level.

Doug: 37:59

It's a lower level than terror, according to the way that burke and um and radcliffe are classifying them yeah, it's interesting because I think immediately about, uh, john carpenter's the thing, which is very firmly rooted in the 80s. You see every single mutation of that monster that exists and that movie will always be stuck in the 80s because of those those kind of animatronic things that he created and all of the uh, the uh practical effects that he kind of put together to make that what it is. But what's interesting about that film is it is the terror of not knowing who the thing is. You're constantly wondering who on the crew is infected now and is going to become the thing, and that's why I think that movie continues to endure, which is also, its most terrifying scene is the one where they finally devise the test by which they will identify the thing right, that is it's

Ron: 38:52

not when you know he's eating the dog or anything like. Uh, the monster isn't even in the most terrifying scene, right?

Doug: 38:59

yeah, they're just checking blood platelets and we're all wondering, yeah, it's so great.

Don: 39:05

So I think one, I think so. That's clearly what I've identified. And then I was also thinking about um Stephen King, is it? Yes, right? Which um have you read?

Ron: 39:17

I've not read it. I've not read it. I know what happens in it. I've never even seen any of the films or the miniseries or anything.

Don: 39:24

I didn't see the two most recent films. I saw the Tim Curry version back in the 90s. Have you seen Red?

Doug: 39:32

So I haven't read, I've seen both versions, yeah. I've consumed all of the media visual media.

Don: 39:40

So it was published in 1986, media, uh, visual media, so it was, uh, it was published in 1986. Um, and I, I enjoyed it on a trip, a school trip that I had, uh, in the late eighties, and it was my first Stephen King and and it was my first thousand page book, so it was a, it was a point of pride for me and, uh, and I know my gosh, it was so much fun, it was such a good book. I thought it was so much fun, it was such a good book, I thought it was so well structured. It it's scary, it's um, it's great, until like 50 pages from the end, and in 50 pages from the end you see the monster and yeah, it like everything that I was afraid of the whole way through the book.

Don: 40:14

Like it. It crashes because it's. I loved being terrified, I loved terror. But then when it gets to the point where they have to actually encounter the creature at the end of the story, then that terror goes away, it like evaporates. And I think that's really an interesting phenomenon because it wasn't just like. That was my first experience with it. But it's not only that. Where that that happens, I have a lot in scary movies, like even even Friday the 13th, that happens. That happens a lot in scary movies, like even even friday the 13th, like I know what what jason looks like, but it's, it's where. It's not knowing where he might be. That's the scary part. Once he appears on screen, well, he's right there.

Doug: 40:51

like that's not scary anymore unless it's jason's mom in the first one. You never know, don't forget, absolutely. Um, yeah, I would agree with that. I definitely would agree with that. That's why I think so many of these movies especially and books applies as well. But I just I've seen so many of our movies that's that could be a sub podcast of its own if we wanted to do. But, um, the greatest ones always have an incredible cast of characters that you are looking to that are separate from the monster. If the characters are really memorable or you sympathize with them in some way, I find that the monster can almost shift and change, and that's why it's interesting, the new it is in it's separated into two parts and the part where they are kids it is, uh, it is so emotionally moving.

Doug: 41:40

It's that you are so invested in them, because each of their stories is so powerful that I think Pennywise could be anything and he kind of is anything in that first one. But because you're so invested in them and their struggles and their insecurities and what they've gone through it's just phenomenal because you're more terrified for them, because you know how vulnerable they are.

Don: 42:00

Yeah, the novel is structured that way too, in two parts. That's great, yeah, that's great.

Ron: 42:04

I think also like there's um, like uh. I think horror films are actually very difficult to make because, kind of to the point, you're talking about Don, like uh resolution is very difficult to pull off in a horror story.

Don: 42:19

Yeah.

Ron: 42:20

Because I think of the, the ones I enjoy the most, tend to have a sort of ambiguous resolution or a. It cannot be a. The heroes conquered the problem and the day is saved. Resolution, right Like. I'm sure you can pull that off, but usually there there has to be. There's always that you know.

Ron: 42:36

And then you know they're walking away and then hope there has to be. There's always that you know. And then you know they're walking away and then, oh, but who's that behind them? Did the monster really survive? Because I think that's sort of key to the experience of horror and terror. Right is, especially if we're talking about the unknown, right, the unknown can never be known. No, no, no, all unknowns will ever be all known, right? That seems to me like to be a sort of paradox of the genre and like and the way we tell stories. Stories need resolutions. We love a resolution, but but our, our imagination never has a resolution. That the sort of the terrors we can build upon ourselves is unending. Therefore, a horror story cannot resolve the crisis it sort of creates, I think. And sometimes when they something they can be done, but usually I think. And sometimes when they something that they can be done, but usually, I think, ambiguously, right yeah was that really a good ending for that character?

Ron: 43:25

did they really solve that problem? Are we really safe? Those are the sorts of like questions.

Doug: 43:30

I think the good ones end on and it's interesting because stephen king I've heard so many times brought up in the context of just can't stick the landing, like just always, endings are a struggle for him. And we brought up M night Shyamalan exact same thing. A few of them he nailed it but for the most part always blows it at the end. And you're right. I think that there's something innate to the cliche of and they got away or did they is almost always the, but generally it's the best choice because it leaves you with that sense of terror.

Don: 44:04

Yeah, yeah, yeah. Just shout out to to stephen king, though, because he does build the best psychological terror. Yeah it throughout, and I think I would argue the shining is probably his best. Yeah, because of that ambiguous ending. Like, yeah, like jack dies, like that's the end of that ambiguous ending, like, yeah, like Jack dies, like that's the end of that story, but like what's up with that hotel?

Doug: 44:22

What really is going on in that hotel? Absolutely.

Don: 44:25

Right, yeah, so that that elevates that up to, and as long as we're talking about King, to just make sure that we've covered all our bases, because King also has written about, uh, he's written about horror writing and he, he finds the same um categories that Ann Radcliffe mentioned, which is terror being the highest version, and then horror. But he adds a third category. Actually, um, stephen King adds a category called revulsion. So revulsion is the, is the gore, it's the, it's the, the bugs, the shock.

Ron: 44:56

Yeah. And it's you with the rice on your face. It's right, that's what it is.

Don: 45:02

So he's got three categories, where Radcliffe has two.

Ron: 45:06

I'm wondering, since it seems to be our hypothesis, don, that we are attaching Radcliffe's definitions of horror to the actual brain chemistry, the way we react to horror, is there a uh, a way we can map king's revulsion onto our physiology?

Don: 45:26

or biology. Well, I think we'd have to, we'd have to speculate about it, and I think it it depends upon what your reaction is to things that are revulsed ting, ting, thank you, because so Revolsivatory For terror the brain chemistry is that's going through the cortical process, that's your imagination creating a problem that doesn't really exist, but then causing a physical reaction in your brain by signaling your amygdala to prepare you for fight or flight, and then horror is probably the. It's the lizard brain reaction, right? Because all of the monsters there, you have to react to the monster. So I don't know.

Ron: 46:06

So there's only the two paths.

Don: 46:08

So I'm wondering for the gore, right, Is it like? Is it shocking, Like I need to flee from the gore. So is it lizard brain reaction, or is it? Oh, something terrible must have happened here. Let me imagine what that was. And that create like so neither way it's, cause there's only the two paths. So I don't know which way do you think it works?

Doug: 46:28

It's because you're thinking with the wrong organ here, if your stomach is about to throw up. You know it's revulsion, that's. He's feeling sick, Absolutely. Let's respect the whole body, gentlemen.

Ron: 46:44

This was. I'm wondering if any of you or our listeners have had a similar experience, but there's a famous story in my family where we like pulled up to. It was just like a boring normal Sunday. We pulled up to a mall or something and for some reason, my sister or brother I can't even remember who was sick in the car and, like as soon as they got out of the car, they threw up.

Don: 47:05

And then, like that, caused me to throw up, like another one of us also threw up, like, right, that that's.

Ron: 47:07

That seems that's also stephen king, let's stand by me, that's yep, oh yeah so yeah, that's the revulsion, uh, um trigger right.

Doug: 47:14

there is nothing funnier to me like there have been so many school bus field trip type situations where you'll hear a student and then another student and then another. Andnier to me, like there've been so many school bus field trip type situations where you'll hear a student and then another student and then another, and that to me like that's the highest level of humor.

Doug: 47:26

I am always in tears, laughing, trying so hard not to laugh, but it's just so funny to hear the chain reaction. But yeah, revulsion, yeah, it seems to catch on in a certain way.

Don: 47:36

Yeah, so we've um in a certain way. Yeah, so we've um, and I've got one more piece of literature I want to talk about. But but, since we've been, you know, we've been kind of heady with, uh, with Washington Irving and Ann Radcliffe, just to help kind of ground examples of this, what we're thinking can. Can you think of examples maybe from movies that that would be this imaginative terror and different ones that are horror and different ones that are revulsion, that that would kind of clarify what we're talking about?

Ron: 48:03

Yeah, I think like uh jaws, I think, operates in the first half on the terror and then the second half becomes sort of the adventure of horror, which is why I think jaws two and three and four are are held to the esteem that they're held to, because jaws one very high right, yeah, the lowest are held to the esteem that they're held to because Jaws 1.

Don: 48:23

Very high esteem the lowest, jaws 1, the shark is not seen for the majority of the film. It's only at the very end and most of it is just, you know. You see, the remnants of what the shark has done, rather, than seeing the shark itself.

Doug: 48:36

I always argue that Jaws is two films. Like there's the horror or, I'm sorry, jaws is two films. There's the horror or I'm sorry, the terror portion in which who's going to get bit next, and then the action sequence blockbuster. If they're going to say it's the first blockbuster, it's because the second part's an action movie. I think through and through of how are we going to beat this thing? And we see it a lot. Yeah, and it takes away that fear I'm yeah, and it takes away that fear. I I've never scared.

Don: 49:02

even the music in in those sections is like so triumphant, like pull the bolts around and it's like I'm not scared at all, right now yeah, but then when that, uh, when that head rolls into yeah, when they gotta go find the sunk yacht.

Ron: 49:13

That still gets me every time, oh everybody.

Don: 49:16

That's one of the best jump scares ever, yeah, ever yeah that would be horror, sure would, sure would.

Doug: 49:22

Yeah, and a little revulsion because he's real gross, that's true. But but revulsion, it takes it another step further. You brought up uh terrifier, didn't you?

Ron: 49:30

as yeah, yeah, that's. Have you seen that film? No, I think I remember seeing the trailers and it's just, yeah, it's yeah, it's not really.

Doug: 49:38

It is horrific and that there is a monster clint, but it's all about, like what is the most violent and disturbing kill, like what's the worst way we can leave a corpse and how long can we focus on the gore and blood. I think that that's like the point of those films yeah, that makes me think of hostile hostile is yeah same thing torture it.

Don: 49:56

It's revolted like it would be a terrible situation to be in, for sure. But but the point of the movie is is to gross people out.

Doug: 50:03

yeah, yeah, there's a whole wave of uh, italian horror movies in the 70s called giallo films, and they would just hold on the kill forever, like it just would be. How many different ways. There was like an insane one. Uh, there's a film called suspiria in which, um, the first are you familiar with this film? No, first victim, like, I believe, is stabbed, falls through glass and then, like, literally falls into a noose and is hung and then, like, was stabbed in the gut so the guts fall out. It's just, it's so absurd you can't help but go like come on, like, this is just insane, but it's part of the yeah, the revulsion is a part of the genre.

Don: 50:42

Yeah, Exorcist. How would you, how would you classify exorcist? Ooh, I think exorcist is horror right Cause.

Ron: 50:48

The threat is always contained. You know where it is. You start to learn the rules of the threat and and there's a lot about visualizing the threat. Yeah, visualizing the threat.

Doug: 51:02

yeah, right, so it's her head spinning and right the you know horrible, horrifying voice. But terror in the beginning, as there, I think, is you're seeing some of the scenes and and wondering what they're going to do. But then also revulsion gets. There's things. I will not even repeat right now that she says that I go, oh, and I still think to this day and I go like awful, which is a psychological revulsion right.

Don: 51:20

Yes, as opposed to like the vomit or the blood revulsion that we yeah, yeah. Are you guys too little to know that?

Doug: 51:27

Amityville Horror. Oh no, I'm very the most famous, get out.

Ron: 51:33

I've seen all the documentaries about it, but never the actual film. Really oh okay.

Don: 51:41

And so that I think I would classify as terror. Yep, because it you never really see what the, yeah, what the entity is that is yeah and that film's famous for um, for the inclusion of, of subliminal um images in the. There's like a few scenes where it's it's got like a couple frames of yeah and things like that.

Doug: 51:59

Sure yeah.

Don: 52:00

All right. So one thing that I think is interesting, just to wrap us up, is this seems to have been intuited by authors way before it was identified by Ann Radcliffe in 1826, when she wrote that piece that I read, because trying to think of the earliest monsters, right, we've got Greek mythology monsters.

Ron: 52:27

Yeah.

Don: 52:28

Right, but we bring it into the realm of English, we've got Beowulf and his first fight with Grendel. Yeah, right, and Grendel is so it's a creature that's never really described Like I don't know, it's described as a demon, but it has a physical form. It's causing physical harm to to to man it has a claw.

Don: 52:52

It has a talon Right, Um, and, but it never like. I don't know, is it an ogre? Is it a troll? Is it a? How tall is it? Like? None of those details are ever filled in. And and Seamus Heaney, Irish poet who did the translation of Beowulf in 1999, talks about this and he compares it to, or contrasts it rather with the dragon. He says the dragon has a wonderful inevitability about him and a unique glamour. But then he gets to Grendel. He says Grendel comes alive in the reader's imagination as a kind of dog breath in the dark, A fear of collision with some hard-boned and immensely strong android frame, A mixture of Caliban and Hoplite.

Ron: 53:34

The warrior qualities of Grendel, I thought, were always the sort of the key thing right. He has to be horrifying to a martial culture that believes it can solve its problems through warfare right.

Don: 53:50

And they cannot solve the Grendel problems, right, right. And so what I think is so unique is that it was probably developed over time, right Through oral tradition, and we have one written version of this story. But even through all that time, the storytellers knew not to over-describe this monster not to give this monster a concrete, definite figure form, because that makes it more terrifying.

Don: 54:15

He is the shadow stalker, he is the shadow stalker, he is the flesh slayer, and then he's called. There's one other word, it's called the aglica. In old English means monster, but it's a word that can be used for like a terrifying monster like Grendel, but also for a warrior. Like an intimidating foe well, and but I'm so that word has gone out of our language, but I think it's interesting is that we, we maintain that comparison. So you can call oh somebody's a beast, oh he's a beast.

Doug: 54:54

Yes, yes, he's a monster man, yeah right and yeah, and it could mean that he's he's a grendel, or it could mean that he's just super strong and intimidating, right yeah, I, I find it really fascinating because I'm thinking of the oral tradition and I'm wondering how many times this was told and, as the orator speaking the story into existence, if this is something that's refined by watching the reactions of those that he's telling it to right, like you know, looking out, and maybe in some of those descriptions, like there are versions of Grendel that are fully described, but that's when he would watch his audience kind of fade away and I wonder if in that natural, because I don't know, I, we, we've kind of waxed on this before but the absolutely almost supernatural power of storytelling and like in the order to captivate the human soul, and I I'm wondering in those moments if just naturally, where they get this from is just looking into the eyes and hearts of people and seeing, like, the less that I say about this terrible thing, the more they scream when they go to bed.

Ron: 55:58

And the more they like yearn for it, though, also right like like you were saying why did you have to watch the horror films as a kid? Because there's an allure there. You have to yes don't threaten me with something terrible, because I got it right, like you need to know. Yes, and probably some of those storytellers satisfied that need for their audiences, right, but it was probably different every time, the same way like when they're adapting your favorite book. Oh, how are they going to depict? Yeah, this creature, this monster, right?

Doug: 56:28

like I gotta know. I wonder, because I was using tales of the crypt at the beginning of this. I'm wondering again for those not familiar. He was the one who just opened the tail. He was the one who said we the tail. He was the one who said we're going to read a story tonight about this, and then it had nothing to do with him for the rest of the episode. But to me that was the guy who was going to get me. And what's interesting is when I became an adult and actually watched tales for the crypt, I went oh, he's the storyteller.

Doug: 56:53

So I don't know what I was, so afraid of, and I so I created all of that terror in my mind over something that didn't even exist for that purpose.

Don: 57:03

Yeah, and I had. I remember having the opposite reaction.

Doug: 57:06

Cause he was incredibly silly.

Don: 57:08

He was silly but then, like the like, some of the story and stories were so uncomfortable to watch, that, like when he reappeared, to either do the next segue, like it was like a, it was a catharsis, like, oh, very much, I don't have to, I don't have to watch that horrible thing anymore, it's just this Muppet.

Doug: 57:24

Yes, he was super silly, that's the thing. He's very comedic, but also I think it's that idea of you know, kind of the uh. Yeah, yeah.

Don: 57:37

Well, thank you all talking about scary stuff? Oh yeah, thought. So, since we open with Ichabod, do you want to close with Ichabod?

Doug: 57:45

Want to find out what happens at the end of his story? Send me with some shivers, don so so.

Don: 57:51

so he winds up being chased on his horse gunpowder by the headless horseman. And uh uh, here's how it ends. Next morning the old horse was found without his saddle and with a bridle under his feet, soberly cropping the grass at his master's gate. Ichabod did not make his appearance at breakfast. Dinner hour came, but no Ichabod. The boys assembled at the schoolhouse and strolled idly about the banks of the brook, but no schoolmaster.

Don: 58:20

Hans van Ripper now began to feel some uneasiness about the fate of the poor Ichabod and his saddle. An inquiry was set on foot and after diligent investigation they came upon his traces In one part of the road leading to the church was found the saddle trampled in the dirt, the tracks of the horse's hooves deeply dented in the road and evidently at furious speed. Tracks of the horse's hooves, deeply dented in the road and evidently at furious speed, were traced to the bridge beyond which, on the bank of a broad part of the brook where the water ran deep and black, was found the hat of the unfortunate Ichabod and close beside it a shattered pumpkin.

Doug: 59:28

Thank you.