Doug: 0:27

Thank you, welcome to another lively episode of the Uncannery. I am Doug.

Ron: 0:36

I'm going first. I'm Ron.

Doug: 0:40

And I'm Don oh, Stéphane Colin S Cure. We're ready to go, apparently, Ladies and gentlemen, I don't like being told we have to be lively but I think you we're lively already, that's a lot of pressure.

Don: 0:53

Yeah, we just got here.

Doug: 0:56

Welcome to the most down-tempo episode of the Uncannery as we completely drain our energy wells to put you to sleep.

Don: 1:04

It's Uncannery.

Doug: 1:06

ASMR.

Don: 1:08

Thanks to our new contract with NPR radio.

Doug: 1:12

That's what we need Is.

Ron: 1:14

Ska down tempo or up tempo.

Doug: 1:16

It's a great question. I would definitely say up tempo. I'm thinking of all the like upstrokes on guitar and how fast that's coming at you. But then I also. I also. Here comes another episode of the encounter of like second wave ska, where it's like very relaxed.

Ron: 1:31

Uh a lot. I know all about the waves of ska, so that's good. I agree with what you said. We'll see you. We'll see on another episode for that.

Doug: 1:38

We are not talking about ska today. We are talking about a hybrid of two words that become suffragetu, which is for suffrage, and jujitsu. Bringing these two things together, that's a portmanteau. I'm here for you, we're here for all of the literary terms we can possibly bring out, and I want to start, as we often do, with a question Is violence ever the answer?

Ron: 2:07

Oh boy. Yes, oh quick, I'm with Don 100%, yeah. Yeah, it seems very easy to me. Yes, violence can be an answer. Okay, we live in the United States of America. We are.

Don: 2:24

Ron is now standing on the couch.

Ron: 2:25

Let me take you down a little bit to a little year I like to call 1776.

Doug: 2:33

The confidence you said that with was.

Ron: 2:36

It's just because this is a down-tempo episode I'm taking a little while for my memory banks to recharge.

Ron: 2:43

I feel like violence is frequently glorified as a, as a uh, not not a uh, um, as a means to is sometimes uh, valorous ends, sure, uh, especially here in america. Um. So, and I'm not saying I agree with that philosophy precisely, but I do think there are instances in which violence is necessary when you know there, you know the, the, the magic of words, the language that we can speak, the, the ideas we can transfer through speaking with people has a has a ceiling sometimes, and sometimes you got to get a little rowdy.

Don: 3:21

I want to say you didn't ask if it was the right answer or a good answer, just if it was an answer yeah. And violence is definitely an answer, but I you know the application and whether or not it's the the the best decision in any given situation is going to depend upon the situation. But to complicate it, I think there are times when it is, and I think that often it is even when people are claiming to use nonviolent means, there's a, there's a form of violence that's attached to some nonviolent tactics.

Doug: 3:52

So you figured me out there. I left it pretty open-ended and vague for that exact reason.

Ron: 3:59

Oh, you know you, you love violence. Yeah, Mr Violence on the weekend. You love violence. Yeah, Mr Violence on the weekend. You sign up, you take classes?

Doug: 4:05

Yeah, I do, I do partake in jujitsu which, by the way, is translation, the gentle art. Thank you very much. Is that what it means?

Ron: 4:14

Yeah, the gentle art, gentle art, what language is that?

Doug: 4:17

Um, we're going all the way back to Japanese hybridized with um portuguese as well okay that's like, yeah, artes suave, like that's.

Doug: 4:27

That's often what, um it goes to. We, um, yeah, I, I also, yeah, I do partake in jujitsu. I have the cauliflower here on one side to to mark the hobby that I am a part of. I enjoy it greatly. But what makes jujitsu the gentle art? The idea that your goal is to bring an opponent to the ground as quickly as possible and subdue them by any means necessary. Instead of to, I mean, I think of like boxing, kickboxing, karate and a lot of these art forms, and they're often primarily used as like bludgeon somebody until they're knocked out. This is the case versus. This is to pin your opponent on the ground and take away the ability of the opponent to strike you with great force. You're trying to close distance with somebody, so if they attempt to kick or punch you, you're as close to them as humanly possible so you can eliminate their weapons from them.

Don: 5:35

I just want to make sure I'm understanding correctly. So we're using verbs like kick and punch gently, Ding, ding, ding point on.

Doug: 5:44

So if you're going to take, for example, a jujitsu class, you're not going to be taught any punches or kicks. The goal is going to be, if somebody does decide to do that to you, to maybe shoot in on like a double leg takedown, which is simply getting your arms behind the person's legs, pushing them to the ground and then getting them into a pin to where, for example, like maybe I've got an underhook under their arm, my head is close to their head and I've got another arm around their head as to incapacitate them. So if they're trying to punch or kick, I'm holding them down versus hitting them. Um, there's, there's, many cases of people who have used jujitsu and their opponent has, like, not a scratch on them and the opponent is submitting at the end Uh, like the.

Ron: 6:31

Is it the opponent, or is there a referee who says, oh, that guy is definitely done. Uh, or is the? Is the opponent say I'm done, I'm done?

Doug: 6:44

There's an absolutely hilarious video of of a mixed martial artist, um, who was called out by somebody online who is involved in the martial art Aikido. The guy, of course, is just mouthing off. Aikido is the only martial art instant cut to the MMA fighter who was just whooping on him with like strikes and he goes. Okay, that's the way it, just puts out his hands, it goes. I'm done. And I thought of that immediately, because it's just so sad when somebody gets the arrogance to believe that their martial art is the only martial art. To answer your question, you're actually kind of traversing into where jujitsu has actually become a sport now. So there are matches that are held that either are determined by submitting your opponent, and this is where we get into chokes and arm breaks Actually, to be more specific, strangles, because choking is the obstruction of the windpipe. All of these things sound so gentle.

Ron: 7:39

Well, yes, like he said, it's on a scale, though right, it is, it's gentle compared to? Is it gentle compared to taking your dog for a walk? No, but is it gentle compared to being struck by Mike Tyson, probably.

Doug: 7:53

Very much so. Yeah, I mean I it's. He's a gentle giant. You talking about Mike Tyson?

Don: 8:00

Yeah.

Doug: 8:00

He was one of the smallest heavyweights ever. Actually he was very small in comparison to his opponents, but so fast and powerful. It's just unbelievable. It's funny you bring him up. I think of him as like one of the most violent fighters ever. His method is just elimination by all means necessary, with bludgeoning your opponent.

Don: 8:19

So you said that jujitsu is now a sport.

Doug: 8:23

What was it before?

Doug: 8:26

It's a crime, the gentle crime well, it, um, it's, it still is, but um always was a martial art. So there is probably room for another episode. We've dipped into so many things but there's probably room for a whole another episode of the evolution of um samurai martial arts into judo and then that becoming jujitsu. Um, the martial art was originally focused, going all the way back to um, the samurai age, in how do you incapacitate opponents who have fallen off of their horse and are also in armor? Now, if you think about samurai armor, we're not looking at plate mail like you would in Europe. This is like a lighter form of armor. But this is you cannot punch somebody through samurai armor. That's generally like an accepted rule. So they had to come up with arm breaks, chokes and incapacitations that relied on throws to the ground and then incapacitating.

Doug: 9:23

Afterwards that art form became judo, which became the national police force martial art, and then the focus specifically on the techniques that start to occur after you've hit the ground. That's jujitsu right there. But what's interesting is like we're in an era right now that just grappling in general is grappling, because when I take jujitsu classes we borrow from folk style wrestling, sambo, judo, jujitsu from different portions of the world catch wrestling. Like there. There are so many different grappling arts that I think eventually we're going to hit a point that it's just going to be called grappling because there it's so liberally borrowed from. But then you see that, like, judo is an Olympic sport but jujitsu we're still working on making it an olympic sport.

Doug: 10:07

Um, I'm sorry, I didn't answer your question yet, did I?

Don: 10:10

no, that's okay, I was gonna follow up, so good um.

Doug: 10:13

So martial art and sport sport became. We now see that there are tournaments that are hosted all through the world, that a lot of them are based on points where, like, you'll positionally maneuver, where you're past somebody's legs and you take the position I described earlier, where you get an underhook under the arm and head and place your head to the side to incapacitate.

Ron: 10:38

What was that, Doug? You want to?

Doug: 10:39

try that again, doug, please don't bully me right now.

Ron: 10:44

If you don't say this, right, we're replacing you with another guy who's nice, there's a d.

Don: 10:49

You better be careful, ron. He's gonna be gentle on you. He's gonna gently throw you to the ground. Dan dan, get over here that's right.

Doug: 11:00

So, um, yeah, getting into these positions that essentially will score you points for different pins, but then always, generally, you can end the match by putting to somebody in a position in which they are being strangled or in a position for a leg or an arm break. This forces your opponent to tap out or to submit to you Like if you break their leg, they to tap out, or to submit to you Like if you break their leg, they'll tap out. They're doing that far before that happens. Hopefully. Does this mean that there are some people who have giant egos that do not want to tap out? I have seen this happen before, where people do decide that they're not going to tap out, and I've seen arms and legs broken, but generally the matches are decided by your opponent realizing I've been caught in the game to tap out, and I've seen arms and legs broken, but generally the matches are decided by your opponent realizing I've been caught in the game, I tap out, I submit to this person and then they win the match.

Don: 11:53

So prior to being a sport, though. So if we go back to, to Imperial Japan, what was the goal? I think that was Ron's question, like, what's the? So I'm samurai warrior and knock my opponent off the horse, but I want to be gentle with the opponent and what's my goal? Just to be gentle until he's too tired to do something else all right, you want to back me into a corner? I'll fight right out of this I'll show you, gentle yeah, so no, very no, there is no submission.

Doug: 12:26

Excuse me submission in that your goal is to break the person's leg or to put them to sleep with a strangle because you do not want them to pick up their weapon again, or you do not want them to get up period, and so putting the person out or incompetent, you know what. Thank you so much for tuning in. See y'all later.

Ron: 12:51

We're going to try again next week with a different topic, folks.

Don: 12:53

Until then.

Doug: 12:55

One with fewer syllables. You were right. This is down tempo.

Ron: 12:58

I can barely punch, you got suffragette why can't you get this one?

Doug: 13:01

It's just too difficult, no-transcript in which they can't hurt you. That's when it starts to transition into the gentle art from there okay, so any other questions about history of?

Don: 13:43

jujitsu, we've really gone deep here. What's the definition of gentle? Yeah, well, so.

Ron: 13:49

I guess, like jujitsu as we recognize it today. When does this become? When is this name applied to this martial art? Is this a relatively recent martial art? Is this yeah, Because at least in my mind, I feel like I've only known about jujitsu for the last like 10 years or so I feel like it's blown up here.

Doug: 14:09

Yeah, in america yeah, in america I'm gonna say that ufc one really changes things. Which believes 1993 hoist gracie famously part of the gracie family trains in uh, jujitsu goes in and that tournament was UFC is very different now and that generally there's kind of a fighting style that people kind of nondescriptly call mixed martial arts, which is a combination of you know some wrestling, you know some boxing, you know some kickboxing and you know some jujitsu and that's that's what you need in the cage. But back in the wild west days of UFC one, you're having people come in and it's like we had a sumo wrestler versus a French Savate kickboxer, you know, and it's like who's going to win that fight. And then the initial days the style that was winning over and over and over again was jujitsu. Like the jujitsu fighter would go in and just clean house. So Hoyce Gracie won the first tournament, went against three different opponent, is either three or four different opponents and submits every single one of them without having to really strike them. Like that's generally like the, the way that that was sold to America, and so slowly but surely that's kind of grown the sport of jujitsu, um, and the martial art as well, and I guess the distinction would be. The sport is, if it's like within competition and their rules surrounding it, versus within the martial art, it's simply the art of self-defense or offensive, if, if, if need be, but generally for self-defense purposes, yeah, so why are we talking about this?

Doug: 15:40

Well, um, you asked the question how does it become this? Well, in the UK, um, in the early 1900s so we're looking at late 1800s, early 1900s Um, there are people from Japan who are basically exporting jujitsu and judo, like they've, they've brought that to different parts of the world and they're leaving and going different places. Um, the Gracie's that I just discussed. There is, uh, mitsuo Maeda goes to Brazil and shares this, and that's how we get this family of, of of people who have trained that now are kind of the most famous name in jujitsu. Like that's how that happened.

Doug: 16:18

But in the UK, um, there was a guy that I'm going to mention in just a moment that trained a husband and wife, and it leads to this historical moment in which women were able to defend themselves against police brutality, and so we need to center on a woman named Edith Garrod. So Edith Garrod is a English, english born woman who pursued physical education for women. That was her, uh primary focus, what she wanted to do with her life. She meets her husband, william Gerud, who is instructing people in boxing and uh, traditional wrestling and this uh. They're married following seeing interest in each other's work, and they start to develop a mutual interest for martial arts. This is an interesting time in England because there is a man by the name of. He's got four, so you're going to have to let me get, let me consult my notes.

Doug: 17:23

Edward William Barton Wright. Have either of you heard this name before?

Ron: 17:28

He's probably got a really good fish fry place named after him.

Don: 17:33

Does he have a brother? I've heard of the Wright brothers.

Doug: 17:38

No, no, no, no, brother here, did he fly to America? And another episode. If there's anything to take away from this episode, it's how uncanny we are when it comes to coming up with multiple topics. No, this guy so the name I should be more respectful but he founds a form of martial arts called Bartitsu, which is the style of martial arts that is famous for being the style of Sherlock Holmes in the Sherlock Holmes novels. So Sir Arthur Conan Doyle took some lessons from this guy and there's a little bit of a blend of kickboxing and jujitsu and wrestling and all of these things that actually are kind of foundational to mixed martial arts. Um, but he starts a style called bartitsu and which sherlock holmes started.

Ron: 18:31

Uh, ufc absolutely so wait, sherlock holmes actually fought people. Yeah, he did I saw violence was the answer. I saw a trailer to like the robert downey jr sherlock holmes movie and he was like boxing people and I was like this is ridiculous, let's go back to basic Sherlock Holmes. But you're telling me in the source material he was straight up punching people Going off. I'm sorry, robert Downey Jr and the entire cast of that film.

Doug: 18:57

Thank you.

Ron: 18:57

Because I used my base assumption to decide not to watch it.

Don: 19:02

Robert Downey Jr just let out a sigh of relief right now.

Ron: 19:11

He assumption to decide not to watch it.

Doug: 19:12

Robert and jenny just let out a sigh of relief. Right now he's vindicated, absolutely, yeah, he's actually. Yeah, I can finally pass. What a what a responsibility that you've laid. So, um, yeah, um. So at this time he has it.

Doug: 19:21

But there's a man named Sadakazu Uyanishi who is a practitioner, who he is our man, who came from Japan to the UK and he is teaching people the art of jujitsu and some judo as well. Only distinction is judo is generally going to be the throws, jujitsu is what you do after they hit the ground. So this instructor has a school called the Japanese School of Self-Defense. He begins to train both Edith and William Garrard because, again, they're trying to take in as many styles of martial arts as humanly possible. They've done a little bit of training with Edward William Barton Wright as well, and this inspires Edith and her husband to start an academy. And by this decision to start this academy, edith becomes the first female martial arts instructor in the UK and one of the first, if not the first, in the world. There's a little bit of debate on that, but historically this is a pretty big deal.

Don: 20:23

Her academy was to just promote the physical.

Doug: 20:29

I don't know what was her academy for she is now interest in, uh, interested in the focus of teaching women to defend themselves. That's the idea. So william is taking over the men's class. It's very, uh, it's very split by gender, um, at this time. But yeah, they have a women's class and men's class, but edith is the person who is in, uh, in command of the women's class and is teaching women how to defend themselves in the uk.

Ron: 20:52

So in this new academy, this is in command of the women's class and is teaching women how to defend themselves in the UK, so in this new academy this is a mix of the Bartitsu from Sherlock Holmes and judo.

Doug: 21:00

Sherlock Holmes is showing up. We've got everybody. Was there a lot of like this is?

Ron: 21:07

I kind of assume people back then. What year are we talking? End of the 19th century?

Doug: 21:15

So we're looking at the late 1800s, like the earliest recorded memory of them starting to train is is like 1899 is really where this starts out. And then, um, I believe they opened the academy within four years of that starting, because eventually their instructor in jujitsu leaves and then they start the academy after that. And then Don you asked what combination of martial arts this is correct. So we're looking at the primary focus being jiu-jitsu, because most of jiu-jitsu, judo and the grappling arts are based on leverage, regardless of size I think my question is just like why are we doing this now?

Don: 21:58

because this is late victorian period, so so grappling and rolling and punching, none of these things sound very ladylike to me so right? I'm wondering, if this is yeah, how unusual was it for there to be an Academy focused on Edith is definitely ahead of her time and has a specific interest in this.

Doug: 22:19

I like I would be very interested because there's not a tremendous amount of information on William and Edith and like their relationship, but I would like, I very much, imagine them as a very eclectic couple who are just obsessed with martial arts in this era.

Doug: 22:32

Imagine them as a very eclectic couple who are just obsessed with martial arts in this era. But this becomes much more relevant because women's suffrage in the UK is now something that has become a hot topic and there's a group of women who, of course, want the vote. And so Edith starts putting on demonstrations in both music halls and theater halls, in which she is showing women how they can defend themselves. League. She becomes politically activated and is like we need to start defending these women who are pursuing the vote, because there are many cases of police openly attacking them, like when they have demonstrations, when they have speeches, they're passing out literature, any of these things. There have been instances of policemen essentially not just breaking up these gatherings, but there's accounts of sexual assault. There's accounts of women who have died in the streets for even bringing this up, and Edith notices this and says you know, I don't think this is exactly right. So I would like to train some of these women how to defend themselves. And this is where this starts to kind of cross over.

Don: 23:49

Are they breaking the?

Doug: 23:50

law.

Don: 23:51

No.

Doug: 23:52

The women they're able to speak.

Don: 23:55

So then what? Why would the police even be involved?

Doug: 23:58

Well, I think we have to get into the sociopolitical sphere here and start to talk about um, why would any of them not want them to have the vote?

Don: 24:10

Although, now that I think about it, they didn't have the right to speak openly against the government.

Doug: 24:18

See, there it is. I was going back to Ron 1776 at the beginning of this. This is the privilege of America speaking through me. I was so confident too.

Ron: 24:27

I'm like, absolutely, what part of the world doesn't have that right, because we like to think the English are you know, peers, but really they're not.

Doug: 24:34

Yeah, the pawn scum really we just dropped off in the uk significantly sorry out there listeners, I still love you. They know what they're feeling. Yeah, uh, yeah, don do you want to elaborate?

Don: 24:47

because freedom of speech wasn't actually uh codified in statute until 1998 in the uk, um, as a human right, though, uh, as part of the uh the movement for that. So prior to that they would have been protected under common law, but but it doesn't enjoy the same. It's not like our first amendment under common law, which is where, um, like, if you heard of speaker's corner in Hyde Park, so there was specific places. So Hyde Park in London is Speaker's Corner, but there were other parks that had, like a Speaker's Corner, like that was the spot you could go and make a speech, but you had to be just in that one little corner of the park. So the idea was that if you didn't want to hear people speaking you know controversial topics then you just don't go to that corner of the park.

Ron: 25:32

I don't want to hear them talking about fairies and toadstools.

Don: 25:37

And if you wanted to be heard at Hyde Park, you would bring a soapbox to stand on so people could see you, which is why people get up on their soapbox to make it.

Doug: 25:46

And now we have it. Yeah.

Don: 25:47

Absolutely. But so these suffragettes would have been breaking the law. So why wouldn't the police have every right to come in and enforce the law and keep the public safe?

Doug: 25:55

So we're talking about dissenters now, and they're the type that I like they should have gone home, thank you.

Ron: 26:02

Violence is never the answer. That's why I asked.

Doug: 26:05

Have a great day everybody. Yeah, that's so. That's what we're looking at. So that's what we're looking at. So, yeah, this actually gives it new meaning, because Garrett joining the Women's Freedom League is a far more radical action, then because her demonstrations, and now this is pretty fun. Now I'm excited for my own topic, narcissistically.

Ron: 26:29

I was just doing it for the money.

Doug: 26:33

A whole new world. Yeah, she would have her husband dress up as a police officer and she would demonstrate the different moves that these women could use to defend themselves and invite women who were part of the audience to her dojo in order to train. And there is a big detail that I've left out of. Edith Garrett is four feet 11 tall. Legally, police had to be five 10. At the time. You were not even considered for the force unless you were five 10. So her husband also being five 10, she was able to throw this guy around on stage and you can imagine the visual of seeing somebody so small, um able to, you know, flip and throw this guy all the way to Timbuktu is going to be absolutely incredible, um, and it's going to persuade a lot of people to uh, hey, I want to learn some of this At I would.

Don: 27:31

So, just just so I have the timeline clear is edith and her husband learn baru ritsu and jiu-jitsu from anything they can get their hands on, any grappling art?

Ron: 27:46

gentle grappling art, um.

Don: 27:48

but then they start an academy that's designed to teach women how to defend themselves, just because they're in the public. And then, at a later point, she becomes interested in the suffrage movement and well teaching anyone because, remember, William is teaching men as well.

Doug: 28:06

But I think that Edith's passion had always been teaching women martial arts, and I think now I'm going to speak for Edith. But I generally find this is a common view in the community of martial arts that the idea of training martial arts is to give you the feeling of safety and empowerment that you get when you do train these things, and I would imagine that that was probably where it started. But then, seeing that officers are assaulting women in the streets, we have women dying for the cause. Essentially, I think that probably activated her a little bit more to where it was like. Now I've got a purpose for this and I want to invite women and even more women into the dojo, because she's not doing demonstrations before she joins the party.

Don: 28:47

Is this a good idea?

Doug: 28:48

Yeah, baby, I love it, I love it.

Ron: 28:54

Give them all the empowerment, right especially I guess it's a good idea, depending uh, dependent, on how it resolves, or are there results from this right is it? Is it a fun kind of empowerment, like you too can throw around a cop, or do they do it because if they start throwing around the cops then I'm like, yeah, that then it was worth it, unless the cops kill them all with guns.

Doug: 29:18

I don't know. Yeah, so we're getting there. Uh, I wouldn't do that, so we don't worry about that. Thank you so much for clearing that up. It's so important. So, um, she does have a legendary performance in may of 1909, which was organized by the women's social and political union. Which would you mind if I abbreviate that for the rest of the podcast as the wspu?

Ron: 29:41

yeah, that sounds great, okay I thought you're gonna say they dropped off a package for me earlier.

Doug: 29:45

that's good. Did it throw you around immediately take, Take your bag, that's right. So she gives a performance in which she invites volunteers and says would anybody like a demonstration? Does anybody think that they can withstand my might? And she kind of gets rowdy about this. A few people go up on stage, throws them around and there's an officer who walks in and says absolutely not, there's nothing that you can do to harm me.

Don: 30:14

And of course he comes in as like a participant in the exhibition.

Ron: 30:17

Or is he dressed in his officer?

Don: 30:19

johnnies, or whatever they call it, or is he there to break up this illegal gathering?

Doug: 30:22

So we don't have details on that. I could almost imagine that it probably would be initially to like let's break this thing up, but then sees that it's this moment of let's see what you can do, because I'm imagining yeah, let's script.

Ron: 30:36

Write this out, because I this guy, first off, he's got big side burns. Yeah, he's probably got that attached into like a lemony mustache over his very much.

Don: 30:44

So he's got the tall hat.

Ron: 30:46

He's swinging a baton. He says all right now, ladies, time to go home. Go home and scrub the floors I'm imagining oi comes out first always.

Don: 30:58

Oi is always what we're gonna hear before anything.

Doug: 31:01

um, but he, you know, heckles, uh edith. She invites him onto the stage and shoulder throws him within five seconds of him trying to. Um, hit her with club Like it goes for the club hit. She ducks under it, grabs him underneath the arm and shoulder throws him and incapacitates him immediately. And then the queen song yeah, Immediately. So, through this demonstration, emmeline Pankhurst, who is the leader of the WSPU, asked Garrett to train about 30 women, which become known and the most unoriginal name as the bodyguard that's cool that works.

Ron: 31:43

You like it. It's simple and it works yeah absolutely the bodyguard.

Doug: 31:47

The bodyguard, yeah. So they bring them in and says would you train some of these women Because we're having increased issues? With every time that I speak, I'm being either ushered out, we have police are committing violence at our events and we need to be able to defend ourselves.

Don: 32:06

So, so please will you train these women how to be violent, Because when I do illegal things, the police are violently trying to stop me. That's right. Why is that a good idea?

Doug: 32:19

Because when an idea is powerful enough and justified enough, when we finally see that maybe the law is wrong, it might be time to take action. In this case, and this is one of those times. Emmeline Pankhurst says I see this woman, four feet 11 tall, throwing these guys around. I see an opportunity for women to be able to express themselves politically. Maybe she's the one that can take us into the realm of being able to defend ourselves, because it's not like they're going out and saying like let's just kill the cops, let's submit all the cops.

Don: 32:54

She had her husband dress up like a cop, Like that's that's the message. That's explicitly being sold to the potential client students is hey look what you can do to police officer If you take my classes like that's absolutely promoting violence directly against the police.

Doug: 33:10

Let's rephrase that. Let me show you, since you've been attacked by police officers so many times, what you can do if you are attacked by a police officer.

Ron: 33:19

You don't want this to happen to you.

Don: 33:20

Come on down to sal's couldn't she have demonstrated that without having her husband dress up like? He could have dressed up, like a like, I don't know, like a shepherd or uh all those shepherd.

Doug: 33:32

Oh man, I ain't going into shepherd town they won't leave their hand going into the highlands, yeah that's not happening? Don it's just getting silly over there.

Don: 33:45

We need somebody to protect them he could dress up like jack the ripper, that would be. That would be maybe more sensible. Okay, I would like that too, because that's some fun stuff why have we not talked?

Doug: 33:51

we need to talk about Jack the Ripper. That would be maybe more sensible. Okay, I would like that too, because that's some fun stuff. Why have we not talked about it? We need to talk about Jack the Ripper, right.

Ron: 33:58

I'm imagining, though. The costuming is important though, because it's like Visual symbol. Not only the visual symbol, but I mean like the technical, like look, grab him by his equipment.

Don: 34:09

No, no, no, no, no. That sounds terrible. No, no, no. I don't mean Are you running?

Doug: 34:13

for president, you called it his Johnny earlier. No, I meant like his belt.

Ron: 34:20

Like, hey, grab him by his belt, and then he's also got rubber cuffs. I don't know, they're not rubber Whatever.

Doug: 34:26

Like.

Ron: 34:27

I mean like there's a technical aspect of right Don Lee fact-checked if rubber was invented.

Don: 34:35

Yeah, can you pull up an image of a? I know that rubber was invented because they did actually put rubber on the police officer's boots when they were searching for Jack the Ripper in 1886. Whoops, there you go. Rubber was a thing.

Ron: 34:47

But like, the traction on this guy's boots are probably a calculation when you're grappling him and you know what's the. What part of his uniform can he not easily reach? You know?

Don: 34:58

I don't know, but we're still promoting violence against the police. Oh, if they're unjust.

Ron: 35:04

If they're unjust If they're bad cops.

Don: 35:07

If they're enforcing the law, how is that bad? But some laws Don.

Doug: 35:11

Yeah, not so good. Do you want 1984?

Don: 35:15

Come on man, let's just pull it in Not all laws are good laws, which is why the government provides mechanisms to change the law.

Ron: 35:24

Yes, to operate within the system to change the law At this time period exclude certain members of the society that have to operate under those laws.

Doug: 35:35

And so, Don, what you're saying is violence is not the answer in this case.

Ron: 35:45

We could have done this peaceably. Locomotive or whatever his name is to, to, to, uh, like, sit down with the suffragettes and like, have a Cornish pie with them and be like oh yeah, you're right, I will take this into consideration.

Don: 36:07

I'm just saying that it seems like it's something that we ought to consider. Like we're, we're looking at this from our perspective, as isn't it fun, right, that the this, the, this diminutive young woman was able to to take down the burly police officer who probably had an ego problem, and and, and it makes a good movie scene for sure.

Ron: 36:30

Yeah, His wife, or his wife hates him. You know like all these are true.

Don: 36:39

But we are saying we are promoting the idea that if you don't like the way the law is, then just be violent until somebody changes that law and that. Well, that's the question that I'm like. I'm struggling with a little bit, because there is the police are there to enforce the law. They didn't make the law. They didn't make the law that said you can't gather and have free speech. They didn't make the law that women can't vote. They're just there to enforce the law.

Doug: 37:03

Well, don, I know that we've had a conversation outside of podcast about the cat and mouse act that was enforced in england. Um, what do you remember about?

Don: 37:15

that. Well, it was unofficially called the cat and mouse act. Right, it was the uh, the prisoners act or the there's, there's some more subjects to that too. The um, the title is more fun if you call it cat and mouse. It is, it's the prisoners. Temporary discharge for ill health act um and uh, it was the suffragettes. Um were the cause of it. They, the primary um protests that would happen after suffragettes were arrested, was a hunger strike oh yeah and and uh, um, they were force fed Um, and then that caused sympathy, uh, from the public.

Doug: 37:57

So you like this world in which women uh have tubes forced down their throats and are forced fed? These are the laws that you like so much.

Don: 38:07

Well, the law didn't say they had to have a tube pushed down their throat. The Cat and Mouse Act actually was a way to avoid that. The Cat and Mouse Act released them from prison so they could regain their health, and then they would serve the rest of their term after they had.

Doug: 38:22

But by your same logic, don't we need to show that the law is unjust? Don't they need to remain in prison to continue their protests under the scrutiny of the eye?

Don: 38:32

Well, until this law was passed, and this law says that they don't have to, so we are following the law by releasing them when they become ill.

Doug: 38:37

I just want to be careful as we go forward to make sure that we look at these things in the right light, because this is a time of tremendous change and we're right before World War. I has happened and we are going to circle back around to this. This is something that I am going to want to address because there is an argument, for this was just pointless violence and this wasn't what got the first woman to vote in the UK. But I don't want to spoil the ending here, so let's keep it ongoing. All right, garrett agrees, I'll train your bodyguards. I'll train your 30 women that you want to surround you, that are capable with jujitsu, and I will make sure that they are equipped to take care of you. Such a public figure that they know that she can be political, especially with her registering with the Women's Freedom League. She now needs to train them in secret, because they're looking at them as political activists.

Doug: 39:49

These women, through their training, have a big culminating event known as the Battle of Glasgow. That demonstrates their skill and prowess in the art of jiu-jitsu, as well as their ability to defend themselves. The year is 1914. Pankhurst is set to speak on her beliefs at St Andrew's Hall in Glasgow, which police have formed a perimeter inside the hall to intimidate them. There are 4,500 attendees at this event stopping their feet waiting for Pankhurst to take the stage, and police are prepared at any moment to kind of charge them. The Bardi, the Bardi guards the Bardi guards.

Ron: 40:32

That's that name.

Don: 40:32

I love, bodyguards.

Doug: 40:36

My pronunciation's gone today. The bodyguard had set up a mass line of bouquets of flowers to decorate the front of the stage, which beautiful right?

Ron: 40:46

Yeah, it's cool, Women love flowers. Thank you.

Doug: 40:49

Except they are entrenched inside with barbed wire.

Ron: 40:55

Oh, cooler Now. The boys love it. Women love barbed wire too. I was waiting for that setup.

Doug: 41:06

So these are at the edge of the stage, in case the police do decide to take this as a stage and assault Emmeline, they are going to be caught in this barbed wire, not so, gentle. Now I see Don eyeing me in the corner over there. I hear you, don, ready to strike.

Doug: 41:19

Salivate Emmeline is 54 at the time, so we need to protect her right. Emmeline actually disguised herself. She was sitting as a spectator in the front row, looking like she's one of the people who's there to listen to the speech and, of course, in dramatic fashion, throws herself up in probably the only area that's not covered in the flowers I was gonna say gets caught in the barbed wire. I feel like somewhere in the course of this podcast I had to go on the defense.

Don: 41:47

I'm like I know Don's gonna say something.

Doug: 41:50

And so she was only able to speak for about 90 seconds before police started pushing through the crowd and assaulting some of the women. The bodyguard gets up out of their seats, distinguished with they don't exactly describe, from the accounts that I saw, the types of outfits they had, but they had like a distinguishing feature in which they start moving through the crowd. There's about 50 police officers towards the front of the stage and all of them basically being hip tossed, thrown and flipped into tables and chairs. Um, it's looking a little bit more like WWE at this point. Um, as they're being like kind of sent off, some of the officers who stormed the stage are caught in the barbed wire and they are able to safely get Emmeline out of the St Andrews Hall. The reason that this is significant is in these 30 women defending themselves from the police officers. This starts the crowd into what is just under riot, crowd into what is just under riot. They're not breaking windows, they're not destroying property, but the women who are in the hall are enthused to march through the streets and it takes the police over four hours to basically clear the streets. And so this event is significant in that it's one of, if not the loudest suffrage movement event in the history of UK suffrage up to this point, and if it wasn't for the encouragement of these women who are successfully defending themselves and this is where Don jumps on me here it's not for this visual of seeing these women who are able to defend themselves, do they have the confidence to march through the streets for the next four to five hours and speak out against what is happening.

Doug: 43:39

The thing to think about is, during the time that this happens, we don't get the vote. The vote actually only comes after World War I, and this is after Emmeline Pankhurst has devoted her time, cause and energy into making sure that we support the war effort and is pleasantly surprised to see that suffrage is on the rise following World War I. But the Don Party, as I call it now, would argue that it is because of the fatigue and stress of the violence of World War I that they say you know what, we don't want to get into this again. Let's slowly but surely determine the class and age of the violence of World War I that they say you know what, we don't wanna get into this again. Let's slowly but surely determine the class and age of women that can vote and we'll eventually start to extend this outward, and as time goes on, it continues to build, and so the debate and why I asked if violence is the answer is is this just a blip in which, okay, some women learn how to defend themselves?

Doug: 44:32

It's a cool historical moment and, as, as Don said, it's very cinematic. Right, it's a movie moment in which these women learn how to defend themselves. Or is it just the fact that we faced the worst, some of the worst human atrocities in mass violence that we've ever seen, and they go yeah, we'll bring in on the vote because we don't want any more protests in in our country? And this is this is kind of where our story of Edith Garrett's influence ends, Um, and I'm curious what your takes are on that.

Don: 45:05

Well, I want to go back to what you said, um, when you were describing the event where, uh, where Pankhurst spoke, and and then the, the melee broke out, and you, you said that it turned into the, the largest suffragette. I don't know what you said gathering, or so my question is was it what made it so important? Was it the number of people who were present, or was it this act of violence that broke out once she began to speak?

Doug: 45:38

It was the fact that it turned from a moment in which it was just going to be we're listening to this woman speak on our behalf to we're taking to the streets and marching and shouting the injustices. Marching and shouting the injustices I wonder if they would have had the confidence to do so and be moved to that action, if not seeing that women were capable of overturning this authority that is in this hall. That's the point of debate.

Ron: 46:05

And I think there's a frequently, frequently, at least in the united states there's this idea that protest movements need to be non-violent, and I think that largely this comes from the sort of the education we've had and the particularly the education we receive regarding the civil rights movement in the 1960s and how it tends to uh spotlight, uh martin luther king jr and his role in that movement more than other people's roles in that movement and uh, kind of in order to sort of um say almost this is how you affect change when, uh, when you are, when a people or a group of you know people is maybe morally in the right and, like we were talking about earlier, right, the law ain't good, right, and the mechanisms to change the law are unjust or deaf to the, the people who want the laws to change. A lot of us are told like this is the way you do it. You just you know you'd be a really good speaker and you march on Washington and you'll wait a little bit, and there'll wait a little bit and there'll be some dogs and some hydrants, but you'll get what you want. You'll get what you want, um, but that's frequently not true. There there are always uh violent, uh escapades, clashes between both parties in these kinds of protest movements.

Ron: 47:27

I think, throughout the 20th century, almost certainly before that also, and I think this is clearly one of those cases, right, like, think about all the like the political upheaval in Europe with the rise of the fascist parties, you know, at the beginning of World War Two, right, there are frequently clashes between fascists and anti-fascists, uh, you know, back then, uh, in england again, I know, right, there's a, there's a famous one that occurs in london, where the people in london were like, no, screw these fascists. And they just beat them all up. Um, and we, I think what you're like, you know, what we've hinted at, is, like, what make, what makes us say, yeah, that one was good and oh, no, that one's bad right like when is violence good and when is violence bad?

Ron: 48:12

right, that's kind of, I think, what makes this interesting, because I think, uh, at least I and probably a lot of people listening to this you know, we live in a world where it's like the, the, the idea that women can vote. It seems like it's been settled a long time ago, but, right, not not that long really, if you think about it.

Doug: 48:30

Yeah, we take it for granted.

Ron: 48:31

Yeah, we do, but it's just an obvious no-brainer. Almost. To us it's like oh yeah, if some mutton-chopped cops are going to get between you and the right to vote, then yeah, beat them up. That seems to us like a very simple one, right.

Doug: 48:47

Well, I just wonder if it would have ever happened that we get back from world war one and the fatigue setting in if they didn't have the memory of, oh yeah, when we last left this issue, there was rioting. We had women who were training in martial arts that had to defend this. I'm now more willing to engage on changing the law about this, because this has this has already been something that's awful and I think, the world being ready, you described it as like, if you're able to wait around through it, like people will remember, then it will change things. Um yeah, I wonder if they hadn't made that march. If they had, would have gotten it immediately following world war one.

Don: 49:26

That's the kind of the question I have and I I don't know how I became the villain of this episode.

Ron: 49:35

But just because of the views you've always had and always voiced it on.

Doug: 49:40

It's been fun.

Don: 49:43

The cause. I think to answer your question, ron right, like how do we decide which one is good and which one is not it, I think we decide that from the perspective of history. I think when it's happening it's much harder to feel morally secure in whatever choice we're making Right. So we look back a hundred years, or you know, a hundred, 105 years, and we say, well, yeah, it's great because you know, the women succeeded in demonstrating their power and they gained a political right that they probably should have had for much longer right.

Don: 50:13

They should have had all along and it took until 1918 for us to realize this. But when there's contemporary things happening I mean we just had insurrection and violence and riots in our own country, right, and on both sides of the political spectrum arguments that the persons who were participating in that violence were wrong, right.

Don: 50:39

So we had the January 6th riot was one and that was countered with the Black Lives Movement unrest that was happening in several cities and so, like I would think, those both represent pretty extreme sides of the political spectrum and both of them were denounced as wrong because they were violent. But from history's perspective, in a hundred years we probably will have a clearer idea of which one was right and which one was wrong than we do when we're living in the moment of when they're happening.

Doug: 51:11

Yeah yeah, Historical narrative becomes very interesting because it's like you almost have to let it marinate or become a soup, and then you have to decide what that looks like and like who are the people who are decrying present day political violence, right, like, I mean, it's always going to be the people in power.

Ron: 51:30

It's always going to be governments who say, you know, say any kind of violent act against us is bad, right, or this isn't the way to voice it, or hey, why don't you, you know, go through the proper channels, why don't you vote in your local election and like, and maybe in 15 years you can get crushed by corporate interests, and this can not happen, right, like, uh, uh, so frequently, I think, when we ask, like, uh, going back to this issue of cloudiness, right, how can we in the moment determine whether or not these acts of political violence are good or bad? I mean, I think that's a deeply kind of personal question. It's one, it's one of the reasons why we need to be educated, critical, kind of got to figure out what those are for yourself, right, and then hopefully form some sort of consensus with a group of like-minded people. We'd like to think, right, is that too starry eyed Am I? Am I waxing uh lyrical, uh hopeful, optimistic, maybe?

Don: 52:51

Yeah, yep, optimistic, maybe. Yeah, yep, sorry, bud, I think what you're describing is absolutely the ideal. I think the the plague of humanity is that we never have that luxury of judging our own history until we're out of our own history. So, so, so the history that we are currently creating will be judged by the next generation and the generation after that, when we're long gone. So so you just got to do your best in the moment, right? And so I have opinions about, you know, the examples that I gave, uh, but whether or not my opinions are the right opinions, I think, will be judged in another a hundred years or so.

Don: 53:31

The um, the thing that that that complicates this question for me, right? So I know I've been asking the question about is it right to use violence against the police? The police are just enforcing the law. Um, the uh. There's a uh feminist, um, uh, academic named Judith Butler, who, um, writes about the points out, rather, that the, the in position of the state, is also a form of violence, right, so the police are violent as well. So to say that, oh, the suffragettes shouldn't have used violence because they should have followed the law, the police application of violence is also the law. So you get into these situations where, especially where marginalized groups are oppressed and have less access to freedom or rights, what, like? What choice do we have for them except to break out in violence, like you know, when they're painted into a corner by the very law that we're trying to say is like somehow the baseline purity that shouldn't be violated. Yeah, correct.

Doug: 54:38

I think for me, I continually think of like, why I get wrapped up in like. One part of this is, of course, like the ways that I romanticize jujitsu. So of course, I'm going to be very interested in the topic, but I also think that there is simply a part of my heart that, just when a person cannot express full freedom and, in this case, the ability to participate democratically in a society that they participate in, it just always seems to be the correct answer to give them a shot at that right, like if they are a contributing member, and of course, that's where it becomes the dialogue. Well, how are they a contributing member? And I can hear the potential.

Doug: 55:20

I believe you described them as mutton-chopped, the mutton-chopped voices that are responding back of. You know they only have these duties, they don't need to participate democratically, but it resounds with me because they especially thinking of a woman, um, occupying a society in which she is four foot 11 and has every right to feel completely dominated, even just physically, by all presences around her, and she makes the decision to empower herself and women around her so they can feel more than. These are the figures that I root for the most and I appreciate the most.

Ron: 56:00

There's a David and Goliath element to this story right, this is a very, you know.

Ron: 56:06

I wonder to what extent it's cultural or, you know, universal, the kind of pull that humans have to stories of people with less power taking on people with more power and winning and succeeding or being vindicated, if not, then then through the long march of history. Right, it has that element to it as well, and that's an element in all stories of political struggle. Right, the state is always going to be the Goliath. Right, and the people who want to change it, they're always going to be the Davids, and there's an appeal in that, I suppose the people who often struggle with with the new um, the new issues that arise.

Don: 56:56

Um are the same ones who will support that David and Goliath story when it's a historical fact.

Don: 57:00

So the American revolution, for example is a is a classic David and Goliath, and you know well, could we have uh, you know, could the continental Congress have have utilized the methods, within the law, to you mind, of the parliament or King George, and literally we were excluded from representation. So, united States, and you know it was throwing off the tyranny of a government that existed thousands of miles away, but it turned out good for us, right? But this story that you're describing is the exact same. You've got a group of marginalized people that don't have a voice in how they are governed and you know the they chose to take violent actions in order to promote their cause and, of course, they get the the win. But when it's happening, I'm sure that it wasn't seen as a good thing that we have suffragettes and and other women throwing police officers across, you know, bars and into walls and stuff.

Doug: 58:12

Well, speaking of marginalized voices, may I conclude with some words from Edith Garrett. It is the Japanese fine art of jujitsu, or self-defense, that has proved more than a match for mere brute force and is therefore not only a good accomplishment but a necessary safeguard for the woman who has to defend herself through life. Physical force seems the only thing in which women have not demonstrated in their equality to men. And whilst we are uh, we are waiting for the evolution which is slowly taking place and bringing about that equality, we might as well take time by the forelock and use science, otherwise jujitsu thank you, jujitsu yeah, it's great I understand it now, doug.

Doug: 58:56

I understand why you go into that room every day and because doug wants to vote yes yeah, it's voting time, that's what I say, but not yet doug just wait a little bit longer that's right, but man, I mean she does so she makes me really proud to be a part of it, uh, to say the least, and I think that, um, in the small.

Don: 59:15

Do you still wear petticoats when you do?

Doug: 59:18

jiu-jitsu. Uh, it's funny there are so many forms. I do a very specific type that like essentially we're just wearing like rash guards and shorts, that it's probably closer to an mma, um. But there are very traditional schools like still I think it's still the most predominant form of school that where the Japanese gi and like kimono and so you're able to get grips on people's lapels and pants and like a sleeve grips and things like that. I just don't train that version because I've always thought like I'm not going to find somebody on the street.

Ron: 59:47

I want to join the barbed wire school. Well, we have to start that one.

Doug: 59:52

Bartitsu, Bartitsu to barbed. Anyway, folks, thank you for listening in to another episode of the uncannery.

Ron: 1:00:03

Thanks, doug, that was really good.

Doug: 1:00:29

Thank you Bye.