Doug: 0:15

Welcome to the Uncannery. Today I'm joined by my two companions.

Ron: 0:21

Hello, I am one of those companions. My name is Ron.

Don: 0:25

And I'm still Don.

Doug: 0:27

And, believe it or not, I am still Doug and today we are going to. It's going to be interesting. I'm curious where y'all are going to take this topic today. But first I'd like to ask you both a question about how you express yourselves through fashion. Do you, when you get up in the morning, you look into that big, beautiful closet, or maybe the limited selection, I don't know how we all dress? Do you believe that your fashion sense is a part of your identity? The way you dress expresses who you are.

Ron: 1:03

Yeah, I think I believe that I wouldn't say it's a, it's not something. I'm it's not a. I'm not very enthused about it, though.

Doug: 1:16

It's not a big part of your life.

Ron: 1:17

You'd say no, I don't think so. Like maybe many men, clothing has been like how I dress myself has always been like an expression of like expediency and cost ratio and all that kind of stuff. I do choose my own clothes, though, and I have always chosen clothes that I like to a degree, chosen clothes that I like to a degree. So, like I think, over the process of having to wear clothes, therefore, I have created a personal style, but, um, it's definitely not like I would not say I'm like a giant candidate for fashion.

Don: 1:57

It's a strange question, cause, um, I can't think I would approach it initially, but saying that, saying that I choose my clothes because of what's comfortable to wear.

Doug: 2:08

Yes.

Don: 2:08

So it's less of an identity statement for me, but then I think it happens in reverse a little bit what I choose to wear then kind of becomes a part of my identity, correct? So it's not that I have an identity and I choose to dress to display that identity, but sometimes, maybe a little bit like I just happen to wear it because it's comfortable and because I wear clothing like that, then people begin to identify me with that style.

Doug: 2:35

So yes, yeah, yes yeah, I, I had an experience seeing um a few students that I work with um over the weekend working on a film, and I happen to be wearing kind of like mismatch. It was a running sneakers, a jujitsu shorts with like a Velcro flap and then a shirt that's like tie, tie with Pokemon on it, because that just happened to be what was going to go to the gym afterwards and you can almost tell like visibly there, whoa, because there's such a lack of, I guess, like effort put into the ensemble. It's just pure comfort that I makes. But but what's interesting about it is there is a lot of expression in that, like the fact that there's some fitness involved.

Doug: 3:13

My jujitsu shorts are definitely like express, like one of my hobbies, and then I'm still a complete nerd for pokemon. So there's, there's layers to that that become. But what I I'm curious about is, don, you're saying that, uh yeah, comfort becomes a big part of yourself. But then I would ask like, would you feel comfortable and this is no knock on the Snuggie? The Snuggie is an amazing article of. I don't even know if we'd call it an article of clothing, but I bring this up specifically of like, would you go to the store in a Snuggie?

Don: 3:45

I don't, I don't think I would stay home in a Snuggie, so no this tells you everything, Ron.

Doug: 3:49

how would you feel about that?

Ron: 3:50

No, I couldn't Snuggie. There are certain barriers.

Doug: 3:53

I won't cross Do a verb I couldn't.

Ron: 3:55

Snuggie.

Don: 3:56

I couldn't. It sounds like a hip hop song it's definitely on spotify teach me how to snuggie.

Ron: 4:08

That's my hip-hop song named after me. No, yeah, there's like certain faux pas of fashion that, even like I'm aware of, or yeah, right like we all sort of generally know that certain rules, and then they're like you know, different generations of you know, and who will like break those rules or create new rules right, and they have different parameters set for like what is fashion to them and so like I won't. I won't wear Crocs. Uh, those are supposed to be comfortable, but I just won't.

Doug: 4:31

So this was the one I, when you said that, I immediately thought of that, because when I was in high school, and uh, we're graduating in 2007,. Right, graduating in 2007, right, uh, that was the peak of disturbing fashion, like so made fun of, and I would say that now they couldn't be more. And even to the fact that they have the charms that they're attaching to their crocs, which are also a style statement. If you were to ask me in 2007 what would be a piece of fashion that would never come back in any form, that probably would have been at the top of my list. Um, and yeah, to see that now that's something. It's also there's like a strange level of expression that becomes. It just seems that there's almost like random chance that allows for these things to show up.

Don: 5:17

Yeah, it's all cyclical, like I still got. I've got clothing upstairs that I'm just waiting for it to come back in style. Um, you know so uh your leather vest well sure you got your suede vest you got. Your skinny ties, you got uh well now the skinny ties are in, so I got my fat ties in in storage and uh and sure. I think so.

Don: 5:36

I even like, even like 1980s fluorescent like there's no way, that's coming back and so, like we're cleaning out my mom's house, like I got rid of a bunch of stuff and it's like, well it's, it's coming back. So yeah, absolutely.

Doug: 5:47

So hold on to everything is the answer.

Don: 5:49

And I'm absolutely the same size. I was in 1980 when I bought that stuff.

Doug: 5:52

So there, you go.

Ron: 5:55

You're a model to us all. Well, for sure.

Doug: 6:08

Absolutely yeah, it's. It is strange from that um, obviously clothing very important to wear in general, but thinking about that, as?

Don: 6:11

yeah, actually, before we move on, one other thing I wanted to mention about clothing is is I dress differently depending upon the identity I want to portray. So it's not just that I dress one way because that is my identity, but I dress one way when I go to work. I dress one way when I play my identity, but I dress one way when I go to work. I dress one way when I play with my friends.

Don: 6:26

I dress one way when I go on vacation and I wouldn't say that those are like. Those are all parts of my identity. Yes, but I'm not necessarily sharing all of them all the time. I'm sort of compartmentalizing a little bit. Yes.

Doug: 6:40

Yeah, and I think that that's also an important distinction before we go to the next segment, that there's also a choice that you can make with clothing. That's yeah, it's like situational and I think that we almost have like a certain level of socially acceptable that comes with that had. Um, it's legendary for, uh, like he has his work clothes, he knows what his work outfits can be and a lot of times, just out of sheer, not wanting to put another outfit together, like he will do like dress shirt, dress pants, like dockers and then just like sandals on, which is amazing to me. And, um, I have to give him that shout out. He knows this is like his like quintessential error in fashion. There've been so many times I've been like you do have to do shoes. If we go out right now, like if we're going out to dinner, you're just gonna have to do shoes. I'm sorry, I'm that guy.

Ron: 7:32

I will wear sandals and and like long pants like I. I didn't say the crocs thing to imply that I'm not tacky. I'm just tacky in a different way, you know this is a special love.

Doug: 7:43

I just can't imagine you in dockers specifically. No, like a strong dress, pants and dress shirt, with sandals it's no, I can't afford those, but um, but do you feel like one of those roles is like your purest form, though right like, like what?

Ron: 7:58

is the most expressive of those roles that you get to put on, and for me it's like oh, it's the weekend and we're going out to see friends or something right that's when I get to put on my metal t-shirt or whatever like I get to be both comfortable, but like be purist wrong who you are yeah yeah, I don't, I don't know, like that's a tough question, because I feel really comfortable in all of the identities that I wear.

Don: 8:20

Yeah, um so, but but I mean, I guess the question is, if you know, saturday and I get to choose what I'm wearing, I don't. I don't wear my work clothes on Saturday just cause I'm comfortable in them. I do, yeah, right.

Doug: 8:31

Well, and I it's funny you bring that up, Ron, because there are people who, literally, you have two friends that literally call you Slayer or Pizza Slayer before people call you Ron, and that way my identity is literally what I wear. Your fashion is become.

Don: 8:50

You're not known as Ron. They don't even know your name, Just just your Slayer fashion.

Doug: 8:54

How Slayer doing that's. That's what I'm hearing the most Exactly Um, so segwaying off of that. So we're talking about uh, don, you sent me out. Perfectly. You get this option of choosing what you wear to portray something about your identity, potentially. I would now like to know your thoughts on body art. So now we're going into the territory of something that's far more permanent. Now, obviously, this is different than clothing, because you know it's essentially your skin that you've chosen to decorate in a certain way. Today, we're going to be focusing very much on tattoo, but I mean, I'm open to your opinions on all body art in general, but also as a form of expression. Do we think it's a form of expression? Often, you know, people will say it's a form of rebellion. Whatever, whatever way we want to take it, I'm curious about your thoughts um body.

Ron: 9:49

Art is cool I don't have any body art on me. I don't have any tattoos. I'm not really same people like act like I don't know. I feel like this comes up every now and then someone, someone who's like 65, will be like what do you think about tattoos? I don't know, it's Thanksgiving, who cares?

Ron: 10:10

But, I got. I think they're cool. I have brothers and a sister who have tattoos and they have a bunch and they love and I think they look sick and cool. I don't, I don't. I don't really need it, though I wouldn't. I don't, I don't. I don't really need it, though I wouldn't. It's not that I wouldn't do it. I think I'm just sort of so analytical, like it's the permanence that is difficult for me to to get past, cause, you know, I know people who are like oh, I hate this tattoo, this is the dumbest thing and it's like yeah, I would hate that too, like if I made that decision when I was, you know, 20, right, that probably, probably would.

Ron: 10:42

That would probably wouldn't be a decision that communicates with me you know, for very long. So, um, I think that's the. My only hurdle really is, uh, the permanent aspect. I can't think of that many pieces of art that I think are cool enough.

Doug: 10:57

I would always want them to be on my body yeah, and I I noticed this too in terms of almost like personality to what you think about body art. It seems, at least in my life, the people that have been the most comfortable are the idea of like that is a stamp from that specific era and time, and I would love it, no matter the era, because it reminds me of something.

Ron: 11:19

It's like a strata of rock, right? Yes, yes, totally. My siblings, who have those, are very like. That's not what they think about. They're just like this was a cool thing, and when I see it will remind me of the time and the place where I got it, and then that way becomes like a scrapbook, and that's super cool, I guess I I probably scrapbook in a different way or something, though you know, yeah, like I probably have something else that fulfills that role for me Glue, sticks and crap.

Doug: 11:45

Keep it in the book not on your body, Ron.

Ron: 11:48

It's like one of those government PSAs that's right, yeah, yeah.

Don: 11:55

I think I was thinking about this in two ways actually.

Don: 11:59

One, I agree with that analysis about the permanence of it, cause cause I'd likewise have no body art that's currently permanent on my body, um, but, um, but, and I think one of the reasons why is is cause I've always had that sense of uh, of the permanence of it and it, and it's different than a fear of commitment, cause it's not that I'm afraid to commit to something, but, having lived a couple years longer than both of you, the identity that I have, I don't feel like a different person than I was when I was 20, but I feel like the way I express myself in that identity is different than you know as a 20 year old, to uh to get a tattoo or to, you know, to make some kind of permanent change to my body is probably not, uh, an image that I would appreciate now as a 45 year old or or 50 year old, um, but I'd like the.

Don: 12:56

I like the way that you're talking about your brothers and your sisters, um, thinking of it as like a, like a snapshot of a moment in time, and it's just, it's still not a snapshot that I would want to carry with me at all times. But but I'm also thinking, you know cause people say oh it's, it's my identity, it's how I expressed myself.

Doug: 13:12

Yeah.

Don: 13:13

But I but, but you don't tattoo yourself, so it's you know, it's an expression of it's art, for sure, but it's seems like you're wearing, like I would feel like I'm wearing somebody else's art and rather than having it be an expression of myself which I understand that people who have tattoos probably view that differently but like that's. That's one of the thought processes that go through my head.

Ron: 13:35

I think that's like some people that do really like tattoo art, they do go and collect art from the artists they enjoy right.

Doug: 13:42

They're like happy to become the canvas by which someone else expresses themselves right and second spoiler we are going to be specifically looking at japanese tattoo today and that is very much the ethic that you're like. You have been tattooed by insert either famous artist or this region's artist, whatever the is. You have a relationship with your artist and that's a big part of why you get the tattoos that you do and, as a matter of fact, um, a lot of times they look at it as the process of they will go in not knowing what their it's. It's called a horimono, which is a full like bodysuit. A lot of times that they will get they won't know what is on it.

Doug: 14:23

Like the artist has a relationship with them that they believe in to tell their story, and that's a big part of it which I I think that that is the thing I find most fascinating is the idea of having somebody create art for you that expresses something about you. That I think is not what I hear from people in America who get tattoos. Like, generally, it seems the idea is this is an expression of how I, from what I have gathered from people who've gotten tattoos, it's very autobiographical. Versus the Japanese tattoo process, as we'll get into today, it seems like it's very biographical, like somebody is telling your story through this, symbolically, or representation from there, and so representation um from there, and so, yeah, I, I see, I see all of those things in this.

Don: 15:11

That's how a lot of the uh the uh students who go on spring break in Japan get their tattoos. They just walk in and that's how you wind up with the uh. The script that says like chicken feet or whatever.

Doug: 15:21

I don't know.

Don: 15:21

I don't know what this says, but I got this when I was in Japan. Exactly Just trust your tattooist to uh to mark your body Of course, of course, I showed my tattoo artists my Instagram feed and now they know me so they told my story.

Doug: 15:37

Yeah, um, okay. Well, today we are going to look at the discussion of. I started this and again I'm very curious where we take this, because I kind you come to my apartment, I've got you know different Ukiyo-e paintings that are up. I very much like the aesthetic and process of a lot of the artists from Japan, and so this led me down a rabbit hole of looking into Ukiyo-e art. I originally thought I was going to research that. That became me more interested in the fact that ukiyo-e art led to the Japanese traditional style of tattoo that is common even today, like if you go into a tattoo shop and you're looking for somebody who's Japanese traditional, it's inspired by that. And then that led to a rabbit hole of me realizing why the bodysuits, or Horimono, is often associated with the Japanese mafia or the Yakuza, as well, Doug, why don't you help me out a little bit, Cause I'm not familiar with some of the names that you're uh you're throwing around.

Doug: 16:57

So I do. I sound very official so absolutely, but the uh.

Don: 17:03

so like the artists, like what? What would I recognize? Like, what type of art are you talking about? Like, what would make me think of that?

Doug: 17:09

And uh, the most famous piece of Ukiyo-e art is Hokusai's wave. I, I believe it has a that. I don't have my full title in front of me, but it's like I, I believe I'm willing to put money that if we googled right now japanese art wave, it would be the first thing that comes up. Let me check will you be the one who does us the honor if if that's coming up with the image in your head and this is also a very commonly tattooed principle Like they will use the exact template of Hokusai's wave in order to create this?

Ron: 17:42

When you say template, do you mean, like, the framing of the picture or literally the picture?

Doug: 17:46

Yeah, this one, that is the one there. It is yes, so.

Don: 17:51

We'll put this in the show notes.

Ron: 17:53

Yeah, Absolutely but for everyone.

Doug: 17:55

Too lazy to click on those.

Ron: 17:57

It's a. It's a blue wave that is cresting with white foam on the top. It's very kind of like jagged, almost like snow. The foam on the wave is very like snow, and then you've got the white parchment paper behind it as the background and the detail on the on the cresting of the wave is super, yes, incredibly fine it's very, um, very bold line work, like everything is outlined and almost uh, I would equate it almost to a comic book style in some respects, where it's just like everything has very clear outlines.

Doug: 18:26

you see every detail. Um, and what was interesting is I'm kind of skipping ahead here, but ukiyo-e, uh, I believe, has a direct translation to floating world art. But the idea was it was the first era in Japan that you could print art from a woodblock, so you could ink up a woodblock and then paste it to the canvas or the paper to mass produce sets of art. And this is revolutionary for Japan and the merchant class um at the time, because art was always something that was individually constructed up to that point. But then, when you have these wood blocks, you can literally make print after print, after print after print that you can have um in your home and um, the more art that's in the world, the more influence um essentially at the at the time um, and that would be the early 19th century.

Doug: 19:19

So yes, yes, um, I think that there's some evidence of them uh playing with it a little bit before, but that's very yeah, it's really prevalent um, specifically with the merchant class, because basically, uh, money is coming in and there are things to spend money on, whether it's entertainment or art. Like kabuki is huge, um, which is um japanese drama, like kind of stage plays that are done with like very exaggerated makeup, that kind of tell either mythological stories or contemporary stories. Um, but how does this all relate to tattoo?

Don: 19:50

how does this all relate to tattoo? How does it?

Doug: 19:52

in the yakuza. So let's go back for just a second. So we, we obviously have evident and well, maybe not so obviously, but there are there's evidence in many civilizations of tattoo going back to the ancient days. A lot of people will look at um babylon. A lot of people will look at egypt and say there's evidence of you know that tattoo has been around. Uh, but japan has this too. But I'd like to go to the Kofun era of Japan. So this is 300 to 538 AD.

Doug: 20:22

Tattoos at that time are connected to criminals. There is a very brutal form of punishment that, basically, depending on what region of Japan you are in, if you are caught doing something that is unlawful, um, there would be people that would forcibly tattoo you um to mark your exile from a place. So, um, if you are um, and this was taken from China, um, but if you're marked uh above your elbow with two rings, maybe in the Osaka region, like you've been banned because you've stolen there, and if you go into another region, they know that you've stolen from Osaka. This is part of your branding, but I mean, this gets to the point. You have tattoos on the forehead. There's more lines, depending on how many offenses and, as you probably imagine, there's probably false accusations and it's an incredibly barbaric form of punishment. What makes you say that? The fact that you would ink somebody's forehead and they would walk around with their punishment on their face.

Ron: 21:28

Try getting a job now.

Don: 21:32

Good luck landowning, comparing it to medieval Europe, right when you steal and you get your hand cut off or you get your ear cut off, which seems to me kind of barbaric and brutal. Give me a choice Do I get a tattoo?

Ron: 21:48

on my arm. I want the tattoo on my arm. Okay, fair enough, but both have this idea of like you'll never be forgiven or forgotten for the crime, right, it's a permanent?

Don: 21:57

Well, uh, you'll never be forgiven or forgotten for the crime. Right, it's a, it's a permanent. Well, sure Cause you can never grab anything again if you yeah yeah, I mean true.

Doug: 22:03

Yeah, I guess I would look at them as both. So because?

Don: 22:07

because here's the cause. That's kind of. What my point is, though, is is if I steal and you cut my hand off, sure, I literally won't be able to touch anything again. So the punishment exists whether or not other people are around. But if you tattoo me, the punishment only exists because other people recognize the sign and treat me a certain way because of that sign. So the punishment is actually coming from the community then, not from the act that actually occurred to me.

Doug: 22:30

Yeah, I definitely agree that the violence of taking and removing body parts is far worse. What I would be interested in.

Doug: 22:39

Finally, we got him to admit, listen, when it comes to ink Victory, yeah, what I would be interested to talk to somebody about is the concept of shame that goes with the marking. The concept of shame that goes with the marking like. That is the part that I almost would think culturally what would be more significant because, like marking, and if you're very um, every like, the research I had done is just that like overwhelming shame made you such like a person of uh, I think the most common word that's tattooed on people's foreheads after, uh, they'd committed crimes was essentially dog. It was like the idea that they were like subhuman and um, from the things that I had read but again, I would love to talk to somebody who knows more about this it seemed that there it was a far worse existence to live, feeling like you're subhuman, like. I think that this would lead to a lot of suicide where people would be like there's no point in existing because there's been too much shame brought to me at this point. So I'd be which is the.

Don: 23:48

I mean, it's the story of Les Miserables. I mean, yeah, to you know, not go too highbrow with this, but yeah, uh, that's exactly what happens in uh with Victor Hugo's main character, right Is is, uh, he serves his time and and. But the, the punishment of having to constantly uh re-identify himself as a former convict limits his participation in society, which is a carry on of his punishment. But the um, the, the act of tattooing as a punishment still exists in in subcultures today, like Russian prisons, I was reading, have a lot of that particular behavior for um, marking people who either snitch or who are submissive or or things like that. And um, and it's not, uh, it's. It's like I say it's a forced tattooing, but then it becomes an identity.

Don: 24:41

So again, it's a flip of what we were talking about. Where I'm, I'm not wearing a tattoo, because it's my identity that I have chosen, but I was marked this way and so now I'm, I'm carrying that identity, and so that's the identity. That is sort of subsumed.

Doug: 24:57

Don, you've done a very good job setting me up twice Now. I will pay you after this. Why do you keep giving him the show notes?

Ron: 25:02

Yes.

Doug: 25:03

Ron, do you research man? That's all I got to say.

Ron: 25:06

What am I? Chopped liver.

Doug: 25:09

You'll be tattooed after this as the outcast following that. So, yeah, this is. This is essentially where we're going. So, um, as uh, we had referred to earlier, we were talking about ukiyo-e art, so we are going to fast forward to the edo period, okay.

Doug: 25:27

So 1604, there is a big unification of japan. Yasutokugawa unites a in, basically, these islands that have been warring for over a thousand years. This is the first time that Japan has really kind of united to form a peaceful front. There is great things about, I mean, no, war is good, it would be nice to have peace. It's fairly common to agree on that.

Doug: 25:54

But in many cultures, japan being one included, you notice that in a post-war period there's not much to be done with the warrior class. That was just never out of work, like you know, up to that point. So, as there is this rise of ideas, the merchant class, artistry and some great things that come along with it, there is this problem that they're finding of former samurai don't have a. It's immediately in 1604, but shortly following that we're eliminating the ability for anybody but merchants to be able to carry swords with them. So this is, I guess in American terms it would be very Second Amendment, but it's like, basically, they get their swords taken away and this, of course, really upsets them because this is a huge part of their identity, is a huge part of their identity, uh, identity, um, as art is emerging and as um, this class is kind of going away.

Doug: 27:05

This interesting scenario comes up where the government is terrified of the new art that is popping up as much as they're terrified of what do we do with the now Ronin, now ronin samurai that don't have this place? Um, there are these um former samurai that are now serving um, that are called the machiako um, that are serving these townships, like these small villages on the outside of big provinces that are being raided by other groups of, like warrior classes that will take crops, people, you name it and basically take things for themselves because they don't really have a job. The groups that protect them, these Machi Yaku, which, if you've seen the movie Seven Samurai to throw film in here too this idea of these protectorates often got gigantic murals tattooed on them that they would bear in battle to scare and ward off people, um that were coming towards the village, like, thinking, the idea of like, well, if you're willing to have this many tattoos and be inked up this much and like brand yourself as this these are the people not to mess with.

Ron: 28:17

Um, it's a big, it's a sign of commitment is that very much so this is this guy isn't like a nightly security guard who you know, he's gonna find a new job next week, like he's really in this because he's how much he's altered his body yeah, so you have like an equal, an equal amount of former samurai that are kind of raiders, essentially because they don't have a place to go.

Doug: 28:40

They don't know what else to do, so we're going to turn to life of crime to steal and take what we need, and then an equal amount that are finding a more legitimate way to do this, which is like outside of the big provinces, I'll protect your town for a certain amount of money, um, but these this is really like the first group that takes a lot of the ukiyo-e art that's being portrayed and they're saying that's a cool dragon, that's a cool, that's a really intimidating like whatever beast this is. I want to put that on me. So when they're rushing the village, the first thing they see is they take down my kimono and I bear proudly on my chest this like symbolic image that strikes fear into the hearts of anybody that would be there and maybe I won't even need to fight and the image is supposed to be intimidating yeah because if you've got a big dragon on your chest or the fact that you sat there long enough for somebody to draw that on you supposed to be intimidating.

Doug: 29:30

It's a it's a great question, like the.

Don: 29:32

Polynesian warriors, like the face tattoos of the Maori, like it was intended to be intimidating, but I think this still holds true.

Ron: 29:41

I feel like most Americans still find tattoos intimidating. It doesn't really matter what. The content is right. That's why I get asked this question by old people like, hey, are tattoos cool now? Because they think of them as like yeah, like a sign of the criminal class, right?

Doug: 30:11

Or something like that. Right, I know that like a bodysuit the one person I know that has a bodysuit. I asked like how many hours was this? And he said probably close to. I think it was like over 150 hours. Like just going back recoloring you know lines, everything that was on it. So you think about enduring needles for that long and inking yourself up I mean that's exhausting and then thinking about, yeah, is it the imagery, is it the process of taking on the ink? Because, yeah, we still have this stigma of like I'm just really tattered up. This is a really intimidating person.

Ron: 30:45

The guy with the black tear tattoos, right, people are going to be like, oh, I don't want to, I don't want to, I don't want that cashier.

Doug: 30:56

Right, yeah, and so, uh, and to connect this, there are several people, uh, that are in the machioko, that are also the former criminals of the era gone by, that are also using this as a point of pride of, although I once was a criminal, uh, and this what I did. This is my form of intimidation as well, because you know what I'm capable of. So the tattoo is also being reappropriated as something that was once outcast is now to be feared, because look at the mark that I have. You know what I'm capable of, and so this kind of leads to so that undermines the use of tattoo as punishment Cause.

Doug: 32:04

now it's, it's street cred is at least more legitimate of protecting from other raiders, of coming through and kind of protecting these areas.

Don: 32:13

How does this relate to the art, though? So just that they liked that art and that was the style that they chose.

Doug: 32:19

Right, so you're looking at obviously, we we've only looked at the wave, but, um, there are several artists in the day that are also depicting samurai, like um, classic samurai warriors from battles, like from the whole Sengoku era all the way to contemporary times, and so, because they are projecting the images forward of these like amazing, like you know, samurai, the there's one and I wish I had this one, but there's an amazing image that Kuniyoshi painted of a samurai basically coming down with a sword and stabbing through this whale, like it's it's a mythological story, but it's just incredible.

Doug: 33:00

And the, the canvas is like the size of a living room. So like, if you're imagining that um being put up and in some you know town square or like you know some banquet hall, like whatever would be there at the time, you can imagine, like these words going I want that to be depicted on me because that is the spirit of the person that I am. Um, the art of the time becomes the factor of what becomes body art for these guards, and this is like the initial period of like, okay, now we're seeing that the art is becoming something that's symbolic of what people are getting on themselves, and then we'll yeah, we'll be able to make some connections from there. Did you look it up?

Don: 33:42

This one.

Doug: 33:43

Yeah, that's one of my absolute favorite pieces of art. Oh yeah, that's cool, it's gorgeous.

Ron: 33:49

Yeah, it's just awesome People across all time, like a good man fighting a monster.

Doug: 34:00

Of course, right, it's so, so fun. You know, I it's just incredible and I think it is right. I mean, if you're looking at something that's almost, yeah, like mythological and it's scale, um, and yeah, let's use that as the example. I think I'm getting my times mixed up, because I think kuniyoshi is like, very much like 1700. Like, I think we're getting a little bit further into the times, but imagining something that is, yeah, like samurai, of this proportion of mythological beast being gigantic People like sick shit.

Ron: 34:27

They're always going to want to put it on their body.

Don: 34:30

That's right.

Doug: 34:32

That's exactly right.

Don: 34:33

But again the question, to circle back to the same question we've been talking about. So are we getting this tattoo because this is my identity and I want to portray that identity to the outer world, or do I get this tattoo and then that's the identity that I have put on At?

Doug: 34:49

this time specifically with the protectors of the village. The idea is I'm choosing, and they're most likely going to pick, something that is like this, that's like mythological it could be samurai something that is intimidating. The idea is the art and the process of me getting it is intimidating to the outside world. Why would I completely cover my body in this? Because I'm a great warrior. You are signing up If you've tattooed yourself that much, especially in in this era. The only thing you're doing with your life is protecting villages or you're willing to look like a criminal at this time, like that's. Those are the only two options you have.

Don: 35:25

It is very controversial so the tattoo, then, is conveying two completely opposed messages either I'm a protector or I'm a criminal. But it's the same like how do you tell the difference?

Doug: 35:38

So, um, it's. This is where it gets complicated. Um, obviously, if you're going to have the specific markings from the era previous, it's indicating only that you're a criminal. But this is the first time that we're adding on to, where we're making the conscious decision to get these tattoos to look more intimidating. Whether, because the idea is is like if you're seeing a group, I don't know, like I'm trying to think of this hypothetical, like I'm imagining the group of samurai coming, or former samurai coming over the hill to raid this village, and they see somebody who has all of these tattoos, we don't have like a countrywide unified view of what it is. All you're seeing is, if you're that tattooed, you're clearly committed to your lifestyle enough that you know this is all you're going to be doing.

Ron: 36:25

It's what everyone thinks when they see Post Malone Look at this poor man who's foregone the companionship of man and woman to be a music artist.

Doug: 36:35

Absolutely man and woman to be a music artist? Absolutely, Um, so generally I think that that's it's difficult to answer because this is the initial stage. So it's hard to say other than this is where we're seeing the first evidence of people that are willing to cover themselves to be intimidating, but the exact purpose, how people would react, it's hard to say.

Don: 36:54

And the, the art style that we're talking about the that they've chosen is. It is that art that people would recognize, or it's just, hey that I? That's the only place where I encountered that art is on your body, and gosh that's nice to look at or scary to look at, or whatever.

Doug: 37:09

The it would definitely be recognized by people in major, like more metropolitan areas where you're seeing um this type of art kind of in markets and I believe the area. What did I use earlier?

Doug: 37:24

banquet hall type of thing like this type of art exactly, um, it would be popular within those cities and the only reason is the artists are taking inspiration of like. Okay, if we're going to create a body suit, what do we have as inspiration? This being the most accessible form of art at the time and the fact that it's bold line, it just works. Because, again, for all listeners at home, if you haven't looked up Ukiyo-e art, it's probably time. But these wood block prints have very bold lines, which is easy to tattoo, because if you're working with skin, it's a difficult canvas to create really minute details. Now we have tattoo guns, but if you look at the original way that they would tattoo in Japan, they would take slivers of bamboo and basically create sticks at the end that they would dip into the ink and then just poke and prod you in the areas until it would cover the area desired, um, up to that point.

Doug: 38:19

So, very bold lines, clear design. That's, you know, kind of simplified. It's easier to do. So there's this weird thing happening, and this is why it was so hard to pick what I was going to focus on, cause it's like there's a very weird thing happening where art warrior class and like what tattoo is is which, like only had been defined as, like criminal charge. Marking is becoming something new. At the time, it's like morphing into something and this, eventually, we're going to get to like how this becomes yakuza, but it's that's the initial stages of where we're seeing warriors that have full uh yeah, like body suits of tattoos. This is the origins here.

Don: 39:00

So how would I know? So if I'm if I'm a japanese villager and and scary tattoo man comes into town, how do I know that he's here to protect me or he's here to rob me?

Ron: 39:10

can I posit that it's maybe less, uh, black and white? Like isn't it possible that the guys protecting are also doug? Said there was two choices that's it, but is it possible they're also in some way you're a threatener like? This sounds a little bit like the, the protection right, yeah, yeah, yeah I feel like there had to have been some instances of that right this is my guess as well.

Doug: 39:33

Um, but actually don, what you brought up is interesting because if you look at the style of and this I do not have information on this, I just know how the traditional, like Japanese tattoo design looks. Now, if you look, it's designed specifically that if you wear a kimono, you're completely covered for your tattoos, like, on average, a full horimono bodysuit is going to stop just below the knee. So if you're wearing a garment, it will be completely covered up and the design will stop at the center of the chest. So if you're wearing the kimono over the sides, you can't tell that the person is tattooed at all. That will go just past the elbow in the same way where it'll stop right there. So the design. Again, I don't know if this era they're rocking the same kind of design, but I know that by the time that we have Yakuza, they intentionally only tattoo these areas. That if they were a business suit or the traditional garb, you cannot see their tattoos at all. That's a very big part of it, which is also fascinating to get tattoos that are not supposed to be seen by most. Um, it's very different from.

Doug: 40:41

So how do we get to this being involved in the Yakuza further into history. So, as we are seeing, for those who don't know, japan was closed to any influence from other countries for, I believe, hundreds of years. What is it? Yeah, 1853, the Edo period ends. Asore perry asked for the border to open, ending a 220 year period of isolation. Uh, creating the magia area. If um have we heard of sailor jerry in any other context other than um booze? I'm very curious.

Ron: 41:23

Spiced rum spiced rum immediately is what comes to mind. Received a plastic bottle of his wares from an elderly family member a few years ago.

Doug: 41:30

Yeah, um, when the uh borders open, one of the things that's interesting and Sailor Jerry is far after this but, uh, if you look at American traditional design of tattoo, um, a lot of the influence is taken from the ideas of what Japanese traditionalist. When people are coming into Japan in 1853 onward and they're seeing some of these people who have full body suits, this is revolutionary to Europeans who are going how is it possible that you've covered your body in this art, in this very specific style? And again, it's very expressive, because Ukiyo-e art this is a rabbit trail that we shouldn't go down but, like Van Gogh, eventually gets hold of this and this influences art Like this very much. This style that's been isolated on this island kind of gets to different places in Europe and people are blown away looking at the potential. For why have we only looked at the things?

Doug: 42:28

This one, this one Island has all this influence and they've developed things in a certain way and so, um, American traditional tattoo actually takes a lot from Japanese traditional, because the sailors I mean sailor Jerry at the time um sees the way that the Japanese have taken on that style and so, in a more um, naval perspective, like Americans, begin to develop a style that's very, um, similar to the Japanese style. It's just we have our own specific way of doing it that doesn't involve kind of like the same patterns and like the ways that you would block out the art on the body, um, but this is one of the big influential um crossovers.

Ron: 43:11

That's there it's probably just like uh the images just become. Uh are drawing from a different like cultural wellspring, though right so like yes, instead of cool monsters and whales and samurai swords you've got.

Don: 43:24

Pokemon.

Ron: 43:26

Yeah, pokemon, yeah Smurfs. We're back to my T-shirt Hanna-Barbera characters.

Doug: 43:32

That's exactly right. Also, bold style, yeah, bold line style. So, yeah, you can. So, okay, we now need to kind of outline some things about crime syndicates and how these things form. So there's, there's quite the jump here. Um, the most basic thing that I can kind of outline of how the Yakuza form is all the way back to this wandering samurai class that doesn't have a place. You have groups. There's the group that protects the village, but there's also groups that are just the no good. Yeah, we're going to start racketeering, like whether racketeering, gambling, whatever the case is. They're looking for ways to make money but that require people with muscle, or, in this case, swords, to be able to defend certain areas. So they get into life of crime.

Doug: 44:28

This starts off very small in the 1600s and eventually grows into something larger. There are people who actually are Japanese. Involvement in World War II was, like exclusively dedicated to a certain group that was like muscling government officials that were part of the Yakuza to get them involved in World War II. I need to do far more research on that and that seems a bit far-fetched, but these groups essentially are created in that they're trying to find a place that they can exist if you don't have the same educational background. You don't have, and potentially a lot of times, if you look at the origins a lot of the um, yakuza, um clans that are in japan, even still to this day, they have a lot of lineage with samurai that had come from hundreds of years before.

Doug: 45:31

In a post-World War II world, with the American influence of the government, tattoo laws in most parts of Japan had been removed. There were laws that you could not go into certain parts of Japan even if you had tattoos on you, because it was so associated with criminal or uh activity. Or if you're protector of the village, we don't want you in this town because you can't even have a sword here. So we're just going to go. So, following this American influence, um the uh, the Yakuza, start taking on the same um Machi Yako um bodysuit ideas, but they're intentionally using them to create this identity through tattoo artists that would be specific to a client. So if you were to um join a certain sect of the Yakuza, you would have an artist that, once you're in, would be the person who is creating your bodysuit. Like that is their artist, and for a lot of young men who are in Japan because tattoos tend to be very appealing to teenagers. The Yakuza would often lure men from poor families Like if you would like to look like us, if you want this full body suit, just do some work for us and we'll get you tatted up exactly how you want to be so you can look the part. We'll get you into a nice suit. You're going to have all the money that you need. The artists for these different parts of the clans would create, as we kind of alluded to earlier, suits that specifically represent the identities of the gang members.

Doug: 47:17

So the I don't know if we're super familiar with this, but the koi fish tattoo that is so common. I mean it's like one of the most common, one of the most common. That symbol actually comes from the principle of a Yakuza artist might make the intentional decision to tattoo the koi fish because it represents the idea of tremendous struggle and swimming upstream to become something great. That is very symbolic to somebody who gets into gang life of the idea of your life was like this Once you've struggled up to this point, you joined us, you became this other thing and now this is a part of your life, so where that would be something that you maybe would go into like an American tattoo shop that has some Japanese traditional and go, I'll just go with the Koi up here. That was somebody's biography that they were wearing on their arm. There's tons of.

Doug: 48:14

If you look at the different symbols of what each thing represents the animals, the mythological principles, the demons, the angels, whatever they're bringing in from Shinto mythology or Japanese culture, all kind of tells a story. And so because, as I alluded to earlier, you're covering up these tattoos, bathhouses became a place that was like neutral ground for Yakuza members, if they were rivals, to be able to meet and basically bear their tattoos to kind of symbolize and tell the story of each member in the room, each member in the room. So if you're meeting with like rival clan and they all have like a certain symbol on them or there's something there, you can tell immediately who the enforcers are in the group, like the art that is on their body. All of this, even though they are legal, again, are heavily frowned upon because they instantly indicate to most of Japan you're clearly involved in criminal activity, because you have to bear the story of what you do on your body, sue. So even though, again, this brought into legal light, it's definitely frowned upon by the common civilian.

Doug: 49:30

But the thing that's fascinating to me is we went from something that was originally used to brand people as being a criminal to the source of pride if not the life story of a person, to where they're literally hiring somebody who is creating body art that is also hidden under the clothes you wear, that tells your story and I think, but still brand you as a criminal. Yes, yes, and and it is only in the past, I think, like 10 years, that we're looking at, because if you go to Japan, still to this day, I know that, um, one of my friends who went was not allowed in any bathhouse and I think this was eight years ago Wasn't allowed in any bathhouse for having it was like a dog tattoo right here and it was just like you cannot come in here Because, historically, no, he has a dog on his arm.

Don: 50:19

That. The loyal commitment to his you said the dog on the forehead was for the murderer, or something Exactly, but on the arm.

Doug: 50:30

It means loyal criminal. So, yeah, I'm just fascinated at the prospect that it becomes this symbol of who you are as a story. But where? Americans again? I started this by asking you what do you think about our body art as a form of expression? This is something that is only reserved for a very small amount of people that are actually going to see some of the most elaborate tattoos you can possibly get. I mean, it's so culturally different from what we see, because hiding everything and only revealing it in very specific moments is so much more telling than maybe, like you know, the fact that somebody would for sure get their forearms tattooed. Because it's so common to wear a t-shirt and show everybody your body art? Um, because it needs to be be hidden from from most of society, because it indicates that you are a criminal, in a sense.

Don: 51:23

So what happens? What happens when you like get a promotion, so like I have my role in the, in the, in the local clan or whatever, and I'm the enforcer. But then you know, I move up, but my body art is done. Do I like? They can't erase the, the markings that say I'm the enforcer?

Doug: 51:41

and.

Don: 51:41

I don't know the CEO marking or whatever.

Doug: 51:44

I would imagine that. So one thing is is a body suit is something that has worked on over years of time, a lot. So I'm guessing that when somebody joins the ranks, like you're just getting, you're starting somewhere, and then that begins the process. So I'm guessing that there's probably room for that?

Don: 52:00

Or do the symbols, do the meanings of the symbols change as they're associated Like, so? So symbols, did the meanings of the symbols change as they're associated like so? So you know, the koi fish or or whatever other symbol is associated with me. Yes, you know the grunt on the ground, but you know, over the course of a 40-year career, at some point I'm the I don't know the, the head, the head honcho, yes, the koi fish then become the symbol of the head honcho because it's, it's, it's associated with me. And so it's not that the symbol means only one thing, but that the symbol of the head honcho, because it's, it's, it's associated with me. And so it's not that the symbol means only one thing, but that the symbol is associated with the person who does the thing.

Doug: 52:31

It seems that you're just adding to the story. It seems the way from what I was able to research, it seems that they're looking at it through the lens of when something is a part of your story. It's not necessarily like chronological, or this has been added, so this changes this meaning. It's all a part of the story collectively and I I almost wonder if it's like the way that we think of story versus how they would think of story where it's like this is a part of life. Um, yeah, I would be interested to know because, yeah, that you again, if you're adding to the bodysuit, I would imagine that you would add certain symbols or things would change, and then, yeah, to how specific that would be.

Ron: 53:13

Like, open to the same degree of interpretation that any other visual art medium would be right. Tropes or themes that will be more readily apparent to a wider, you know, audience, but then more specific ones are hidden or intentionally obscured and only accessible to, you know, a smaller slice of those people. Right, right, yeah.

Doug: 53:38

And I, and I think that, and the interesting thing about looking at symbols is, of course there's like conflicting information too, of like, well, the cherry blossom means, look at the impermanence of life in this, and then another person is like looking at it from the context of like the eternal, you know, like growth of the tree, like means something else. So then I wonder, is this regional Like? Does it depend on if I'm in this gang? This is what this symbol means necessarily, or is this necessarily what this means and I? Does it depend on if I'm in this gang? This is what this symbol means necessarily, or is this necessarily what this means? And I think it would always depend on context. But the fascinating thing, to me at least, is the idea of secretly having this entire expression that is under you, that is only reserved for the very few, whereas, don, you might go out right, like you have your vacation outfit, you know, like the express is like I'm clearly on vacation. A person, from me.

Ron: 54:28

Yeah, I never get to see that. It's the doctors in sandals.

Doug: 54:34

Shout out dad Looking at that. Yeah, People are permanently like in the same way that you're thinking about, like these very intimidating forms and like covering your body, which is this very permanent thing.

Don: 54:48

It's only reserved for these very small amounts of people and in a completely different context and motivation, like there, there are definitely tattoos that that in American tradition, people get as well. You get tattoos in places that are not intended to be publicly shown Right and at very few number of people get to see certain parts of your body that are tattooed and like shown Right, and a very few number of people get to see certain parts of your body that are tattooed and like what's the purpose of that?

Doug: 55:12

You're talking about Americans, yeah.

Don: 55:16

And like so, because you're saying that the interesting thing about the Japanese tattoos is that it's definitely an identity, but it's an identity that is, it's like an under the an identity, but it's an identity that is, um, it's, it's like an under the surface identity right.

Don: 55:29

If you, if you saw a, a group of people dressed in Western style or even in traditional Japanese style, like you wouldn't be able to pick out the Yakuza from right and non as long as they were dressed, yeah, but when we're talking about American tattoos that are hidden from view, like none of them seem to be as as linked to an identity right and then this gets even more complicated.

Doug: 55:54

There is a tattoo shop in san jose called state of grace tattoo that specializes in traditional japanese tattoo with a modern flair. So they will do the the full bodysuit. It is not. This is not for somebody to be in the Yakuza, but it's just the beauty of like Japanese tattoo is what they're focusing on. But they'll do a very modern take of like. There was one that I saw of a cat who is doing the traditional to Bori on another cat. You know.

Doug: 56:22

Like just doing the stick and poke, like as if it were like the 1600s in their body suit. That's representative of, yeah, like what a yakuza member have. But in bringing that style over to america, this is just a style of tattoo that you can request. I would like japanese traditional. I'm interested in doing a body suit. You can find somebody and it has no connections to the Yakuza. But what would the Yakuza say if they saw it? That's where I would imagine that there would be some conflict. I would, and I've thought about this because, like, I very much think it's like the most beautiful style of tattoo. I think it's amazing.

Don: 56:58

But I look at it thinking about potentially getting something like that and then just even traveling japan and I think I would be incredibly nervous the entire time that I was there, thinking about how they would look at it, culturally, sure yeah, well, and and like we were talking about earlier, that the interpretation of the symbology is super important and right and fluid as well, because it yep the same, like you were mentioning earlier, when you're opening up about the uh, the, the tattoos that criminals used to get, that they were circumferential tattoos on the arm and certain distances from the elbow and and we get all kinds of um of circumferential tattoos.

Don: 57:37

Now, like it's very common to get a tattoo goes all the way on your bicep, but if we go back in time a thousand years, then all of a sudden that means you're a criminal. But now most of the people that get those tattoos have no idea that they're basically putting on their arm a symbol that says, hey, I'm a criminal and I think where we're going now with this conversation is like I think about this in art in general, because we see this with music too.

Doug: 58:00

We see this in in uh, canvas art, like the idea of this meant this at one point.

Doug: 58:05

Now it means this there are certain things that I see in like cyclical traditions and music that it's like oh, at one point this was used in like gangster rap, which was like at its in its heyday, like in the early nineties, is like well, this is literally like you know, like something that is marking the murder of somebody else, or like the confidence in being able to murder somebody else that is now being used as a sample on like a party track. That like is just for somebody's enjoyment and fun. Um, and then, in a similar way, like yeah, this which once marked me as a criminal, is now just something that looks cool. Or it's like a piece of art that I really enjoy having on me. Or even a step further, I didn't even know that it was connected to criminal activity. I just thought it looked cool. Or I just, going back to the music, I just thought it sounded cool and then, now we're back to like what art is and expression.

Ron: 58:57

Yeah, and when you were asking, I think a little while ago, don, you were saying something about like, what's the difference between the symbolism in Japanese tradition and American tradition? To me, the American kind of tattoo reflects a sort of like American view of individualism. Also, right, where it's like the tattoo doesn't? I feel, like most of the people I know who have tattoos, they're not even really there for a public audience. You know, and you're talking like some of them are hidden and you know, like, what does what does that say about who we allow to see our tattoos? But I think it's sort of this like American idea that like I'm just I'm me and I get to do what I want. So like, if I like that thing, if I like that koi fish, it doesn't matter what it means to me, I want it on me, right?

Ron: 59:41

So, like, regardless of any tradition or idea of what that might symbolize.

Don: 59:46

Which is the opposite of what Doug's talking about with the Japanese, where the tattoo is actually the symbol of belonging. Yes, yeah.

Ron: 59:52

Whereas I think people use tattoos in America to differentiate themselves to be, I am the most unique because only I've got this. Especially, if you're like someone who goes in and like you know, oh, I've made this drawing, can you put it on me? Or you want to remix the images on the wall to get something unique, right, supposed to reflect how I am different from everyone else.

Doug: 1:00:14

um, I know that it's changed. Hearing this has changed my view, that I think it for me. I am far more interested in the idea of having a relationship with a tattoo artist and then trusting them to design. I think that that's way more fascinating now because I wouldn't be joining the Yakuza to have them tap me up in a certain way. But I'm really interested in the idea of because a body art artist is an artist fundamentally. A body art artist is an artist fundamentally and I think that if they are a person that practices this constantly, I imagine that it would probably would be frustrating, because most of the people are coming in.

Doug: 1:00:51

I want this to express me in this way. I want exactly this. Can you do this, almost as an insult. It's like the same thing as like an amazing musician who says like oh, play free bird. You know, every time it's like I can do that. Yeah, absolutely. But if you would like to get me at my full essence, it would be good to have a relationship to talk about what this design is. Yeah, it's far more fascinating to me.

Don: 1:01:13

So are you going to get another tattoo to go along with your face tattoo?

Ron: 1:01:18

Yeah, we forgot to mention to the audience this entire time. He's grinning at us through what looks like a bear, with its mouth open and his face is coming out of it. It's just a mole, thanks, yeah, that's it.

Doug: 1:01:29

Um, no, I do find it interesting enough that if I did meet I am open to the fact that if I met somebody who was um, passionate enough about design and was interested, I would be more open to getting a tattoo. Now, I was never very adverse, but I always had the feeling of like I don't know if it's going to mean the same thing. I actually think it's way. I, I, yeah, I'm far more into it. Thinking about it in the context of if I had a great relationship with an artist in a sense and I love their work like being a canvas is is far more interesting.

Ron: 1:02:01

I felt for a while that there are kind of like two types of at least american people with tattoos, and one is the autobiographical. I've got all these cool little pictures and they represent memories or friends or parts of my life. And then there are, I feel like in the last I don't 10, 15 years, the idea of like no, I'm just a canvas, like I just want to be, uh, like the person on which a cool piece of art exists, regardless of what it means about me.

Ron: 1:02:27

I mean, there will always be a subtext meaning of, like, I'm a pretty right, bold or artistically inclined person to even have undergone that process, right, or to give someone else that freedom over my body, yep, um, that will always kind of be subtext. But, um, I do feel like there are a lot more people in that group than I used to remember when I was growing up, or I just wasn't aware of it because I was a kid and I wasn't reading tattoo Twitter, I don't know.

Don: 1:02:55

So what's your next tattoo? Doug, If you're going to get a tattoo like we're going to go tonight, we got time. We'll go to the parlor tonight. What are you going to get? Jeez?

Doug: 1:03:04

I think the parlor tonight. What are you going to get? Jeez, I think, uh, the parlor. I guess I would try to redirect the conversation to. I need to look up artists in the area to think like who?

Don: 1:03:13

would be the most interesting Cause. You're chicken Instantly.

Ron: 1:03:16

Yes, Um actually I've got a equally terrible answer, because I think, doug, you've actually helped me realize why I don't actually want tattoos helped me realize why I don't actually want tattoos and for a long time I was like, oh, I guess it's probably that permanence thing. But it's actually what you said earlier about the symbolism how people want to symbolize themselves in a sort of you know, a picture on their, on their body, some quality there, and I'm actually just not interested in that project. Like I don't feel the need to express myself pictorially on my own body. I would rather like, uh, express myself in different ways with people like through your dance yeah, through dance and through my uh only fans.

Ron: 1:03:55

So like, but yeah, I'm just not interested in sort of like thinking about and and categorizing myself in that kind of way. I guess, so that's also probably why it's never just a feeling.

Don: 1:04:08

Think of how handy it would be, though, if we tattooed criminals. Like then, in all of your, in all of your regular encounters, like you know what do they say, Like the average person, like you run across three criminals or three murderers in your lifetime and you don't even know, right, Like wouldn't it be handy to to know like, just have it on the forehead right. So then, like, you know who you're dealing with when you're dealing with well, I think it's.

Doug: 1:04:30

It's more ethical to have it done in glow-in-the-dark ink, so we could just do a uv light really quick.

Ron: 1:04:35

Yeah, let's check that wrist again just you know, when we go to chucky cheese, we know who the criminals are exactly.

Don: 1:04:42

It's uh electric daisy too. Then you know the raves. They just absolutely. It's just projecting out.

Doug: 1:04:47

For sure, just take them out. Well, and this is a good uh opportunity to let you know and I'm sorry, ron, because I know that you're afraid of this, but there is a tattoo artist who's coming over right now to get us matching uh uncannery tattoos. All right, to stabilize the show.

Ron: 1:05:00

That was the whole point. Anything for the brand identity? Absolutely. Don.

Don: 1:05:06

You clearly have a tattoo that you want to get right now, though, you know I don't, but if you're going to force me, like I'm trying to think, like what it would be, like I'm flipping through all of the things in my life that have symbolized what I am at the moment and and I don't.

Ron: 1:05:22

I don't want any of them on my body. Can we rank type types of tattoo by tackiness Like? Is a quote the tackiest tattoo. Oh, are you going to get like a line of Shakespeare on your bicep?

Don: 1:05:34

Well, there's not enough room. I'd have to do a little working out to get us enough space for us yeah.

Doug: 1:05:43

I imagine you having like John Keats, like flying through the air all the way down my back, the whole body of work, the.

Don: 1:05:53

Grecian area holding the heart absolutely well. Thanks, doug. This has been really interesting and enlightening a lot. I don't know very much about Japanese culture, so this has been really interesting and enlightening.

Doug: 1:06:07

I don't know very much about Japanese culture, so this has been super interesting it was fun to do something that I didn't know exactly, because I didn't know if we were going to go ukiyo-e tattoo yakuza. I didn't know what would pick up, but it made it fun to interact with y'all to see where we were going to go this is very cool well thank you everybody, thank you everybody, Thank you Doug.

Don: 1:06:27

Thanks, Doug and everybody, we'll see you next time on the Uncannery.