The Uncannery
The Uncannery
Wrestling with Reality: Trust and Betrayal at the Montreal Screwjob
WrestleMania weekend unfurled its tapestry of drama and spectacle, and I was right there in the thick of it, juggling my love for Baldur's Gate III with the real-life soap opera that is professional wrestling. The thrill of Cody Rhodes' championship saga, the electric atmosphere of the WWE's Super Bowl—if these stories set your heart racing, then you're in for a treat. As we reminisce about the seismic shifts from pay-per-view to streaming and how WrestleMania serendipitously aligns with Passover, we'll unpack the intricate narratives and theatricality that captivated us, just as it has legions of fans worldwide.
The heart of professional wrestling beats with the pulsing storylines that keep us on the edge of our seats—think Shawn Michaels, Bret Hart, and the Montreal Screwjob that shook the foundations of the WWF. We'll traverse the emotional landscapes and backstage politics that define this unique form of entertainment, exploring the artistry and athleticism required to perform without pain, and the real-life loyalties and rivalries that could give Shakespeare a run for his money. If you've ever been curious about the interplay of scripting and spontaneity, the finesse of a Sharpshooter, or how wrestling storylines rival your favorite comic book arcs, step into our ring.
Our final act peels back the curtain on the business savvy and celebrity allure that fuel the wrestling world, from the star-making machinery of 'overness' to the decision-making drama of who drops the belt. We'll grapple with the legacy of giants like Bret Hart and The Undertaker, the weight of championship belts, and the respect that powers the personas in the squared circle. So, whether you're a die-hard wrestling enthusiast or just intrigued by the spectacle, join us for a candid conversation that captures the heart, the passion, and the undeniable humanity of professional wrestling.
Thank you. Welcome, one and all, to another episode of the Uncannery. I am Doug, I'm Ron, I'm Don, and we three will be delving into the depths of discussion today, starting. How did you both celebrate your wrestlemania weekend? Thank you so much for asking.
Speaker 2:Um, I played two hours of balder's gate three, okay, and uh probably got dinner with my wife, okay, and I kissed her on the cheek and we went to bed that's fantastic.
Speaker 1:Don you see me equally as enthused.
Speaker 3:Yeah, um, when was when? What? When was russell fantastic?
Speaker 1:so we've obviously got two big time wrestling fans in here, so I hope that I'm not stopped in my tracks. Um, we are currently celebrating the era of cody rhodes being champion. Um, one of the longest narratives and some people saying that it's the greatest WrestleMania of all time. I I maybe I beg to differ, but wow, I mean it's. It's a time where wrestling has really hit an uptick in terms of its writing and story, and it's very, very exciting with the exception, especially in this room.
Speaker 3:I mean, there's at least one of us who knows what the hell you're talking about. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, absolutely.
Speaker 2:This, so the the energy is suffocating but um wrestlemania is like the super bowl of oh the wwe right oh yeah, we yeah very much, so it's now a two-day event is it always the same part of the calendar year?
Speaker 1:yep yep, absolutely, yeah, yeah, wrestling, uh, pro wrestling kind of centers around. There are a few weekly specials that you're watching that are traveling to different cities that are building to big excuse me, storylines in a pay-per-view events, essentially. And that's where these things happen, which is hilarious, because we're in an era now that there's like pay-per-view, doesn't like, do you stream Peacock? Well, in that case, you can watch WrestleMania. So it's a lot cheaper than it was back in the day.
Speaker 3:And does WrestleMania always occur around Passover? Or yeah, is that?
Speaker 1:intentional. We remember, we remember and we celebrate at the same time. That's it.
Speaker 2:Men will always struggle.
Speaker 1:that's it men will always struggle all right, so there's going to be some qualifiers that we'll need to get into. Um, gentlemen, it is your job today to very much rein me in when I start going way too off the rails of how excited I am and you go. What's the royal rumble? What are you talking about?
Speaker 2:I don't like reigning you, and I love it when you just are going full steam.
Speaker 1:I really appreciate it, but I don't want to just access pro wrestling fans today and be with them. I want to be with everybody because we're talking about a very important event Today we are talking about the infamous Montreal Screwjob is what it is known as. The newspaper headlines at the time. Right as such, it sounds dirty. It sure does, sure does. Or it sounds like a drink like you could pick uh, most wrestling sounds dirty though, right.
Speaker 2:Yeah, it just sounds uh sort of grimy sweaty much, so very much, yeah like they've cultivated this image, I think am I is that why I like it?
Speaker 1:I don't know.
Speaker 3:I just learned something new about doug that I never wanted to know I'm a grime boy oh, of all the things I've been called, maybe my, my favorite.
Speaker 2:So I just want to say real quick like uh, I don't know a lot about wrestling, okay, um, but I've always wanted to like I feel like. I've been uh like clinging to the chain link fence, looking from the outside Like I want to know what the fuss is. I wish I could like that.
Speaker 1:Yeah.
Speaker 2:So I'm I'm really excited cause I want to learn.
Speaker 1:I'm glad you're here to share with me, because I find all of this very interesting, but I've never really been able to to like sit down and watch a wrestling match. Okay, well, we'll, we'll rectify that in the next few weeks, but, um, yeah, it's beautiful. Insanity is really what it is. It's uh, it's um. I think pro wrestling at its base is a place in which people engage in a storyline that is constructed around sports entertainment fighting and sports entertainment and there are moves and submissions and pinholds and throws and slams and jumps and leaps. There's a gigantic roster of moves and signature moves that kind of are attached to these people that are almost to the heights of, like comic book characters in which, like, they have a persona, they have a distinct ability, they have strengths, they have weaknesses, and you get to see it play out live in a ring instead of in the imaginations of a moviegoer, a reader. You're watching this happen with athletes that just give it their all do you?
Speaker 3:though really here he is. You watch it play out live. They know how it ends before it starts, but nothing's playing out.
Speaker 1:Okay, so Don is on the tip that we're going to look at. Okay, if if we haven't discussed this. Yes, wrestling pro wrestling, and I want to make sure that we understand I am not talking about Olympic wrestling, freestyle wrestling, folk style wrestling.
Speaker 2:Folk style Absolutely Can I get into folk style wrestling. I think, folk style, absolutely can I get into folk style wrestling, absolutely, we will I wear overalls banjo for an extra subscription to our podcast.
Speaker 1:You can watch us, ron and doug folk style wrestle.
Speaker 2:I'm a. I'm a folk style wrestle that they're alligator. And now you're a grime boy. I'm a slime boy.
Speaker 1:Whatever kind of boy you want.
Speaker 2:We're all of them here.
Speaker 1:We got to find Don's boy Don is a negative Nancy boy, so he doesn't like pro wrestling, and I understand. This is the biggest argument. It's fake. It is pre-organized matches. There's a storyline that's going on. There is arrangements between the wrestlers of who is going to win and lose the match and um, this is what leads people away from it a lot of the time, because you're watching um, two opponents wrestle each other in the ring. Sometimes it's tag team matches, there might be four. Sometimes it's the royal rumble in which dozens of wrestlers are entering the ring and fighting and trying to throw each other out. What makes it Royal?
Speaker 1:Great question oh actually that is a great question, like I'm wondering if, like the the King wrestlers come right, because there have been very Royal wrestlers like Jerry the King Lawler.
Speaker 2:Yeah.
Speaker 1:There have been, and so I'm wondering if the original event had something to do with that. But it was. Yeah, that is a specific type of match in which wrestlers are thrown over the top ropes so you don't, you're not pinned or submitted or you give up or you know somebody, somebody's knocked out. It's nothing like that. It's just if you simply go over the top ropes of the ring and your feet touch the floor, you are eliminated from the Royal rumble. And that format is, to me, so much fun to watch because there are times when there are 16 to 24 people in the ring just going haywire and you see kind of how it plays out. But the Royal rumble is significant that whoever wins it gets an opportunity to um wrestle for the belt at WrestleMania. So it's a lead up event.
Speaker 2:Which, to Don's point, is fake.
Speaker 1:But glorious. Listen, don't you? I mean, think about this for a second. Isn't that why we go to the movies? When you listen to I don't know a great album that takes you somewhere else, when lyrics are you, are you the type of person if somebody didn't experience it and they wrote a book about it, then it can't be authentic? Do you think, when you're watching a movie, that they all have to be realistic? Isn't the fantastical something to be admired?
Speaker 2:this is like the direits song, where he imagines that he's a furniture and appliance mover. You guys know what I'm talking about.
Speaker 3:Money for nothing.
Speaker 2:It stings on that. Sting features on that track.
Speaker 1:Oh yeah.
Speaker 2:Anyway, yeah, he's pretending to be no. That song kills.
Speaker 3:I don't need Mr Dire.
Speaker 2:Straits to have actually worked at Best Buy.
Speaker 3:Yeah, very much so. The difference for me, though, is, when you go and you watch the movie, it proclaims itself as not true, and wrestling doesn't do that.
Speaker 1:I would argue it does. Now I think that there's a very distinct so the WWE currently, when you turn it on, you'll see Paul Triple H Levesque, who is the owner of and they call him the creative control of the WWE universe. This is how they refer to it. They are making it very clear that it is a universe that they are creating for you, and it's in those moments of seeing how they construct these storylines I think the people, at least that I talked to, that also love it so much. They are fascinated in the ways that things go. They're heartbroken that it was his time for the belt. How could this possibly happen? The guy I mentioned right now, Cody Rhodes, has, um, he's come out with so many different personas over his career. I think, like he's up to, this is either his fifth or sixth personas. The, the American nightmare, Cody Rhodes. Like he's tried so many different, it's very intimidating.
Speaker 3:Yeah, he's the he's the man.
Speaker 1:Um, there are so many personas that he's tried that have just miserably failed that the crowd just didn't enjoy him. He would be cut from rosters. He's gone to AEW, he's got the other wrestling organizations and finally came back and finally he's found it. And he comes from a wrestling family where his father didn't get it. But he finally got the belt and we were all waiting for it and they just built it up so well against the enemies who wanted to take it away from him.
Speaker 1:And it's it's incredible and it's it's interesting, even looking at the clip. So it's, it's funny. Obviously, the people who are in there know what's going to happen, but Samantha Irving, who is the announcer for, like, she announces who comes into the ring and winners of the matches you can hear. I mean she's like she's crying as she's announcing that Cody's won, because it's even for her knowing what the story is, it's it, it's so emotionally moving for her to watch somebody who's given their life to this craft finally achieve this glory and become part of the story. It's even his tagline right now. Is he finished the story? It sounds like a soap opera.
Speaker 2:Yeah, but it's the best soap opera you can watch. But, um, so as not, uh, some someone who never really watched a soap opera did the so because I know people got very involved in them. Did the soap operas have an element where people were very tied to the actors as people like? Because this sounds to me like there's the.
Speaker 2:There's the story of cody rhodes wins a fake belt and we're happy, but it sounds like the reason that's significant is for real reasons, about who Cody Rhodes as a real human is. Like you said, he's put his time into the industry, he has lineage Right and so like. While we might want to see Cody Rhodes the character win because we like him he's my Spider-Man but I also just want to see the guy playing spider-man win because what a cool, nice guy was that part of soaps well, but does it matter to you whether it's andrew garfield or toby mcguire or?
Speaker 1:yes, it has to be toby the fact that tom holland was in really upset.
Speaker 3:But I think so, to answer your question, and I don't. I, I experience soaps a second hand. They are a thing that, uh, that plays in my house and did play in my house when I look like a big dallas guy you got dallas energy.
Speaker 3:I, I was too young to watch dallas. When dallas was on, I would, I would, I would, I would, uh, I would accidentally see it sometimes. But, um, but it is about the characters, and then the thing with a soap that I remember frequently would be that the actors change and the characters don't, and so it is about watch. You know when is that character going to to, you know, hook up with the other character, or finally reach their dream, or, you know, kill their nemesis, or, and so sometimes it's about finding the right actor to take the role, and then you know nobody likes the new AJ and you want the old AJ back, or whatever. But it's it. It sometimes is about the actor too, because there's I don't know his name, there's an actor that came over on general hospital from days of our lives that like same thing. It's been one actor and he's played, I think, three different roles and they're just trying to find the one that like that vibes, I guess, or Yep, yeah, absolutely yeah.
Speaker 3:I think that there is something, but again, they don't say this is really a hospital and these are real surgeries that we're pretending to perform. They say it's fake from the outset.
Speaker 2:But I wish I had prepared a little bit, because I feel like we're getting to like the theories of fiction and how fiction operates in the brain, right? Yes, my grandmother watching General Hospital knows that this is not a real hospital, but while she's watching it, while she's invested in those characters, does that matter? It? May it, may it not as well have been a real hospital?
Speaker 3:well, you know, because if she like what? If she thought it was a real hospital and thinks that the only thing that you have to do is like surgery takes four minutes and you know, then you can, you know, cure cancer.
Speaker 2:Once the show ends and the spell is lifted. She knows that right. She knows all the actual hospital sucks. Are you using the?
Speaker 3:argument but then that's the thing is that the spell doesn't lift with with wrestling because it carries over. There's no moment where where they carries over. There's no moment where where they, the wrestlers, say oh okay, we're. You know they get to go out on a date with taylor, swift or whatever, and it's not their, it's not their character anymore. It's the actor playing the character. They are always the character, even outside of the ring there's a concept that right am I wrong?
Speaker 1:yeah, it's like I almost think that we're getting into the logic. You haven't quite gotten this bad yet. But it's like in the logic of like if you just body slam your way, you got a body slam your way through your problems, just dip into a slim gym and yeah get in there and body, slam your teachers and then you'll be able to.
Speaker 1:You know, like I don't think it gets to that level and I can even attest because I got into pro wrestling when I I think that I was nine or ten, I think, and I started watching in the what was called the attitude era of wwf. It started getting a little bit more racy and wild and it embraced the trash tv element and like we're bringing um, you know, yeah, stone cold, ste, stone Cold, steve Austin, the Rock, um, one of my favorites Mankind, the Undertaker, was still around. He had just been an absolute staple, these kind of absolutely absurd characters, and even as a kid I you knew like the Undertaker Is that character Kane?
Speaker 1:Kane is Undertaker's brother. Look at you.
Speaker 3:Okay, nevermind, don's a pro wrestling fan.
Speaker 1:Now I'm happy. All right, that's it. So I never really took it that way, but you've set me up kind of perfectly. The thing that we're going to talk about today with this screw job is this was a plot line over a wrestler that I hold very, very dear to my heart, the one and only Brett Hulk Hogan.
Speaker 2:And that's all for today. I hope you guys enjoyed the podcast. He's not a real american he does.
Speaker 1:Okay. I wish we had that queued up. The uh, the hulkster theme song. That was good. So uh, yeah, oh god, I, I'm not a gigantic hulk, hulk hogan fans well, you're not.
Speaker 2:He destroyed, uh, journalism in america. What don't you like?
Speaker 1:it was, uh, it was his era. Uh, it's funny he kind of defines like what modern pro wrestling is. But I just um yeah his.
Speaker 1:His gimmick is not my favorite um my. So the story that I'm talking about today is brett the hitman hart. Um he um was involved in a storyline, as I uh said earlier, called the montreal screw job, in which he believed, going into that ring, that he understood what the um conditions were going to be as he was about to drop his belt to Shawn Michaels at the Montreal Survivor Series before he transferred over from the at the time named WWF to the WCW, and he was screwed over by his boss, vince McMahon, and this was a real thing that happened to Bret Hart. This is a real moment in which he expected something to happen and the opposite did, and I think that that's why this moment is so significant. So there's a few things before we start is one is I've already started throwing out some terms that I want to be clear about before I get into the organization that we're talking about today. The WWE was once called the WWF, and my memory is they got sued by the animal people.
Speaker 2:Is that right?
Speaker 1:They came after them and they had to change their name and so I'm going to hopefully I do a good job of like being consistent. But wwe and wwf are kind of used interchangeably because in this era that I'm talking about it was called the wwf but it is currently called the w what era is this?
Speaker 1:what years are we talking um? We're gonna start. It's basically 1992 to 1997. We're looking at the mid 90s, um here, um, it's the wwf at this time. But this is going to get a little more confusing because we had a rival company that at one point looked like they could potentially outdo the wwf, and this was the disney. Uh, certainly could have been. I'll tell you if disney took over. Oh wow, I mean, that would be bob eiger.
Speaker 2:Yeah, mcmahon, what's the difference?
Speaker 3:I would watch mulan body slam cinderella.
Speaker 1:I agreed I can show you as well, so this is gonna get a little more confusing. It's not disney, it is the wcw, the world championship wrestling uh organization. This is um. They are the rival company at the time and there's there's many. It's not Disney, it is the WCW, the world championship wrestling uh organization. This is um. They are the rival company at the time and there's there's many pieces of lore that are going to go to that the? Uh. I brought up Brett the hit man heart. He had a rival named the heartbreak kid, sean Michaels. You're going to hear his name come up a lot. Um, you're going to hear about Vince McMahon, ownerwe, and eric bischoff, owner of wcw.
Speaker 1:That's where the cookies on the airplane come from yeah that would be interesting, accompanied by that body slam you're talking about. That's it? Um, how, uh? Another thing that's important do we understand the concept of a, a signature move that a wrestler has, or a finisher? It's sometimes called, I think I got, yeah, the.
Speaker 2:It's like a theatrical, performative, cool move, something that you could probably I'm assuming you can like. Uh, it has like stages so that an audience can be like, oh my gosh, he's about to do the yep flying dutchman or whatever that would ron, that would definitely be, your move.
Speaker 3:I could see that.
Speaker 1:But yeah, it's a signature move in which usually signals this match is about to be over. They've done this slam or this submission hold or this to the like. That's it. And yeah, bret Hart's is called the Sharpshooter and it does have to do with our story. It's a submission hold. That's one of my favorite moves of all time.
Speaker 2:How, how based in reality are these moves Like? Are they mutations on actual historical wrestling styles or something?
Speaker 1:Probably we'll find ourselves in a podcast where I talk about catches, catch can wrestling, which is where all of this comes from. Um, and it relates to jujitsu as well, which, you know, I'm a practitioner and big fan of. Um, yeah, there was. Uh. Basically it comes from submission wrestling, which the idea was you use traditional wrestling pins but also try to submit your opponent with incredibly painful um joint locks and neck holds and things like that.
Speaker 2:Like twisting their elbow behind their back. That sounds like neck holds and things like that, like twisting their elbow behind their back like so much fun why don't?
Speaker 1:why don't more people do this? You'd be amazed. It's such a good time, uh. But yeah, it originated in um challenges that essentially would be put out of like if anybody thinks they can wrestle the great bandini, come up and, for ten dollars, get your chance, and they would just submit everybody in the crowd, make them say uncle and go from there, and that, yeah, that lineage eventually leads to the spectacle that is pro wrestling today. And then are we familiar with pro wrestling, just the rules of a traditional match being that you can pin your opponent and the wrestler slaps the mat three times, indicating they've been held down for three seconds, instead of the traditional one fall. That's in Olympic wrestling.
Speaker 2:That sounds, yeah, I'd say a guy on the mat slapping it is a thing I've seen.
Speaker 1:And we're counting three and once you get to that three, you win the match. You can also lose if somebody taps out and submits. You can also lose by disqualification. Maybe there's somebody who interferes with your match or you use a weapon Like somebody takes out a chair and like hit somebody.
Speaker 2:You can't use the chairs.
Speaker 1:Can't use the chairs. It's unless it is a weapons match. If it's declared a a weapons match, then you can.
Speaker 2:So I'm going to assume. Sometimes these matches they get a little wild. Oh yeah, I'm going to. I'm assuming, sometimes you think. I'm starting to put the pieces together. I'm thinking sometimes it's not about who wins oh yeah. Sometimes it's about who gets mad and hits them with a chair oh yeah absolutely, and so a lot of the drama plays out in that.
Speaker 1:Um, that's kind of. I just want to make sure that we went over that, because if I'm going through and I'm like, and now he's in the submission hold the dq bell rings and people are like what are you talking about?
Speaker 3:I just I wanted to make sure we cleared that up. Um, are we ready? Yeah, that's totally clear. I can see it now.
Speaker 2:Oh, I'm ready. Doug, I'm here. I'm sorry that we'll see what don woke up on the wrong side of the wrestle mat, but he got put in a submission hole called the cranky.
Speaker 1:That's all I know. All right, so let's start with Bret Hart. So, bret the Hitman Hart, as a young lad he is, his father was a professional wrestler. They grew up very poor. They're looking at a situation in which he's being um. His family is like encouraged to go into wrestling because it's a business trade that his dad knows, and stew hart is legendary for training wrestlers.
Speaker 3:The garage, or the uh, the basement of his house is dedicated to training wrestlers and giving them and this is this is his real biography, or this is his real, his story biography to give him a background in the wcw universe real.
Speaker 2:I think it's super cool that you can ask that and it's a legitimate question.
Speaker 1:Yeah, that's really and this is so. This is the cool part. So in the, uh, and we've already messed it up, yeah, so this is the cool part. So in the and we've already messed it up. Yeah, so this is the WWE, wwf universe. I think, sorry, wrong universe, too many W's out here, okay. So yeah, we're looking at.
Speaker 1:This is the real life story and this is the thing that I love about Bret Hart and I think it's why he resonates. His life story is who he is. It really is. His story is his biography. Um, so they have this legendary father who trains wrestlers. He grows up around this.
Speaker 1:For a long time Didn't want to be a wrestler, but as time went on, went, let's go for it. Let's do this. Um, he starts off as a part of a tag team with people like cousins in his family, and he goes on to. He's very much acclaimed, if not the best. He's almost always heralded in the top five greatest technical professional wrestlers of all time. Don would say this is hogwash, because there's no such thing as being technical in wrestling, but it is really important, considering that these guys often work 300 to 340 days a year.
Speaker 1:You're looking at, injury is going to wipe you out, and so people on the roster need to stay healthy enough to go out and put on a show every night. And so there are very technical ways that you need to take a fall, bounce off the ropes, jump off the ropes. Land moves on people, even a simple clothesline, which is you bounce off the ropes, you take your arm out to the side and you club somebody and they get knocked down to the mat. That's done by your pectoral muscle making contact before your arm does, so you essentially run into the person's body, but it telegraphs to the audience that you've hit them with the side of your arm, and so you can usually look at a wrestler who's not very good, and they're literally clubbing people and hitting the ground. Um, but Brett was known as being um, somebody who never hurt anybody in the ring. That's one of his greatest um reputations is he was just great at what he did. Um, his signature move.
Speaker 3:So he's. He's great at not not hurting people, but the goal is to get people to submit by pain, correct? Sounds like he's just a.
Speaker 1:He's a bad wrestler is what you just described I am uh personally offended, uh at this point, but in the honor of our listeners that are patiently waiting, uh, yeah, he is trying to make it look like there's tremendous pain going on Because, again, a lot of the moves.
Speaker 3:Oh, that's right, Because all the pain's fake I forgot. Okay, I'm with you now, I'm good, but there's a skill in selling pain right.
Speaker 1:Oh yeah.
Speaker 2:Like I don't know if I could do it that well.
Speaker 1:If I'm being honest, if you it that. Well, if I'm being honest, if you allow me to be a little honest, there's a I might not be a good wrestler. There's a fantastic youtube video that you should check out, um of a guy who's training pro wrestling and one of the things that's tough is like a lot of the moves do hurt real bad um, and it's just about dispersing the pain. Like, for example, if you are body slammed, what you're trained to do is basically disperse the impact through like as much of your body as possible so it isn't as painful for you. But there's this great video online you can watch a guy who's like learning to take body slams. They're kind of training him and then the guy kind of surprises him. He's like, oh, that's everything. And he's like, okay, I think I'm ready. And he's like, all, right up, you go, picks him up and slams him. The guy goes he's just so furious that it happened to him and he's like I'm okay, but I hated that. It still hurt um. So, yeah, it's, there's conditioning that happens. It's definitely a trade in skill. Um, that's there.
Speaker 1:But serious injury like tendon snapping, broken bones, going out, concussions, these things that like would take somebody off of the roster and give you the opportunity. That's what he's great at. So his signature move the sharpshooter. What a move. It involves crossing your opponent's legs around one of yours, flipping them to their back, holding their ankles sitting towards their back and basically putting a pressure on their legs and spine so you're contorting their body into a position that is so uncomfortable that they simply must submit. And there was real art in the way that he did it to make sure that he wasn't injuring his opponent. Technically it's a variation of a move called a Boston Crab, in which you can literally break somebody's back. Like, if you fall down and sit on somebody's back the wrong way, you can break their back with it.
Speaker 2:So it's a variation on that, but he did it in such a way that, yeah, didn't cause his opponent any pain, which is good news. That would be very cool to be the guy who's the best at doing that and not hurting people.
Speaker 1:Yeah, and I mean he's selling the moves. Moves, I mean everybody looks great, uh, like who's in the ring with him. He would make them look like he was great at selling other people's moves to make them look like he's going through the most amount of pain possible. And then he moved. He's hitting on somebody else again.
Speaker 2:It looks incredibly athletic is it like the inverse of ballet, where ballet is a, an art form, where the performers are in tremendous pain the entire time, but they have to look like they're not? Am I right here? It might be pro wrestling. Can you start telling me about ballet? Absolutely, so let's go to the channel let's go to the bullsh**.
Speaker 3:Let's start with the bullsh**.
Speaker 1:Bret hart was the greatest bullsh**.
Speaker 3:Uh dancer I think all of this is bullshit.
Speaker 1:Okay, Listen to Don Listen. If you're a pro wrestling fan or ballet fan, please write in.
Speaker 2:No, this is good. This is engagement. We're going to get a bunch of angry emails. Comment down below.
Speaker 3:Yeah, yeah.
Speaker 1:So, okay, there's your background on Brett Hart. So before this era. So this is again. We're going to be talking about 1992 to 1997. This is a big era for Bret Hart. Before that, okay, if we're looking pre-90s, we've said his name already. Who are you thinking about when I say pro wrestling, hulk, hulk A mania baby, every day, every night.
Speaker 3:You know what brother?
Speaker 1:And he's coming out of the woodwork to tell you about it. Right, he is an American icon.
Speaker 2:He's in my movies. I'm a child, I don't know who he is, but he's in my movies Couldn't be more mustached up.
Speaker 1:and he's coming after you. That's right. In this era, there is a major house cleaning in the WWF because steroid use ooh big no-no. We do not want to be looking at people who are using drugs to become the monsters.
Speaker 2:This is a kid's show.
Speaker 1:This is. It didn't really. If much of these guys just destroy each other, this is for the kids, like, teach them how to body slam each other, don't teach them to inject steroids, that's right. So, um, this actually causes a big house cleaning of wrestlers, um, and I'd like to shout out cultaholic wrestling. For so much of this information because, um, I was trying to piece things together and I think that they have the best story on this screw job and so a lot of this I pieced together. So thank you.
Speaker 1:Their biggest talent at the time was probably Bret Hart and Shawn Michaels. These are the rivals we're going to talk about, which kind of pulled them away from the spotlight at the time because they weren't quite as big. Now, there probably was some steroid use with them too, but they just weren't as giant as some of the wrestlers on their roster, so they stuck around. To give you an idea, 44 of the men who were scheduled to rumble at the Royal Rumble that we talked about earlier, by the time that it's 1997 Survivor Series where the screwjob happened, there were only four of them left, and many of them let go because the image was trending towards. We can't have these giants in the ring at the time. So a lot of the success of both Brett and Sean at the time is because we're transitioning to this new, more and actually truthfully friendly, friendly generation, called the new generation or the new generation. Before we go into the attitude era that I grew up with, did they take that from Prince? That would be an interesting question. I wonder if that's the case.
Speaker 2:I don't know. I don't know. I wish he was here to ask, absolutely, I just wish he was here. I'll say that.
Speaker 1:Yeah, he's the man man. So, um, eric bischoff, this, this person that I referred to, creates this competitor on tnt.
Speaker 2:remember old ted turner yeah, what happened to him?
Speaker 1:he's still out there ted turner shout out wherever you're at, we love you. Gap us up ted he creates his competitor wcw, and guess who? Uh is one of the biggest names that he signs, especially as this new generation starts, wait, does whole come back?
Speaker 2:oh yeah, oh, I didn't know that wcw signs hulk mania to um there.
Speaker 1:So anybody who's missing the old era as the new generation is starting up. Eric Bischoff capitalizes on this. He's like we're going to sign Hulk cause he's just been released from the WWF. Let's take him in and let's go from here. Takes him in. They do an amazing thing again with storyline, where they transition into him. Hulk, for the first time ever, becomes the bad guy. Hollywood, hollywood, hogan, yeah, and it's. It's absolutely insane so he went to hollywood he got corrupted.
Speaker 2:Now he's a bad guy, that's. That's the big thing all the time. And he had this like it's right it was such.
Speaker 1:It was such an insane storyline. He starts just fermenting his beard like very dark, like he left the mustache bleach blonde, but then he starts just fermenting his beard like very dark, like he left the mustache bleach blonde, but then he's just fermenting the rest of it.
Speaker 2:Oh yes, I've seen this Hulk this is this era.
Speaker 1:He's part of this group called the New World Order and it's most of the guys that are being offloaded from the WWF and that was the whole gimmick. It's like we got Hulk he's a bad guy check us out, like that was their thing. Um, it's just. They really they had great matches. They just really struggled with storylines. It was just. It was garbage a lot of the time in terms of like what they were trying to build with stories. But some of my favorite matches ever like they they were part of wcw, can you tell us real quick what makes a great wrestling storyline?
Speaker 1:oh, that's a whole nother podcast. I don't know if I can get into, but I can give you that the basics are. It's the same thing as any movie you watch, right like when you get that character that you love that changes and in some way, or they get their moment or you see something that happens. These are like the big moments, that in which, like, you've been following the story and they do something that it kind of resonates with you. These are the big things that happen. Or a character goes away for a while and then they show back up, like maybe they're off the roster. They come back and they ally with characters that you love. So I would equate it again. I go back to comic books, where you're going, they're back.
Speaker 2:I can't believe it, this person's doing this.
Speaker 1:Like I mean to give you an example. Recently in wrestlemania the rock came back as a very bad guy, very bad guy. This is an old play.
Speaker 2:Now, though, they're just doing the whole thing. It's a hollywood rock, hollywood rock oh my gosh, which fraggle rock.
Speaker 1:Yeah, I don't even think yeah, which is great because he's got a wig and it's all so one of you needs to do Fraggle Rock for one of these podcasts I don't know how, dig up some dirt, so it's uncanny, but I need it.
Speaker 1:But yeah, there's a big shift to yeah the rock right now, yeah, going towards that, and even though that's a tale as old as time maybe, of like now he's bad guy, it's really fun to see a guy who's literally been in Hollywood, right Like, doing all these movies, and comes back. He's like I'm part owner of this company and he just he didn't want Cody to have the belt. He's like he doesn't deserve the belt, like we're going to keep it with. At the time his name is Roman Reigns, uh, and he allied with him and it's just it's fun. It's really fun to see like people come back and and which way it goes.
Speaker 1:So, uh, wcw competitor, right, so why am I bringing this up? Brett's gonna get tangled in this mess at the time. So, um, several wrestlers jump ship with bischoff's generous contracts. Bischoff at the time is actually offering wrestlers way more money than vince mcmahon is. Over at um wwf they're not doing as well. Um, brett learns that a guy named diesel uh in wcw he takes on his actual name, kevin nash uh, is making more than brett has with three title runs, like three consecutive times that he's won the belt and been at the top and usually if you're at the top of the mountain which is also another macho man quote, uh, top of the mountain, which is also another macho man quote, uh, he, he, yeah, diesel's making more money than he has with like the best position to sell merchandise everything else that he is.
Speaker 1:So during the timeline we discuss from here on out, our man, brett, is offered a tremendous amount to switch teams. He is offered a tremendous. At one point brett says just pay me one penny more than what hulk makes and I'll take your offer. Like that's one of the things that comes out. And brett actually really wants to stay loyal to wwf. Vince gave him a chance when, um he bought out the group that Stu was a part of his father and he actually wants to stay loyal to the company. And so he brings the amount that he was going to get from WCW to Vince and he actually stays in the WWF, even though Vince tells him I can't give you that, but we can bump you in these areas. He's goes like we can do this contract. So he doesn't take the offer at WCW. Vince offers him more and more, but not as much, and he says but I'll stay loyal to the brand and this is why, when we get to this, uh, this Montreal screw job, it makes it all the more contentious.
Speaker 2:Thank God he wasn't a member of Gen Z. They jumped at jobs like fleas from dogs.
Speaker 1:Yeah, that's what they said about the millennials too, okay.
Speaker 2:It's going to be Jen-O.
Speaker 1:it's getting worse, like at a certain point that's like they don't even exist. Ghost generation yeah, all right. So brought up Bret Hart, his rival Shawn Michaels. So Shawn Michaels also great, the Heartbreaker Kid, great wrestler out of San Antonio, texas. I also love him. But Bret and Michaels always kind of had a contentious relationship. They were always vying for that top spot Like who's the best wrestler in the WWF and Bret, but the answer is neither of them.
Speaker 2:I'm glad he brings this up, because actually I've been.
Speaker 3:I'm actually struggling with this issue also tell me what's wrong?
Speaker 2:okay, so you made it sound like there is a hierarchy of wrestlers. There is okay you said, some wrestlers get paid more than others they sure do and so it sounds like that the wrestlers who win the belt are the ones who get paid the most oh yeah, there is a financial incentive to be the winner and you are. You're chosen, yes, and you're chosen right.
Speaker 3:So there's no winner. You're not winning anything just because the story says you, you walk away with the belt.
Speaker 2:You didn't win it, but you do but surely in my mind, the people who win the belt I'm assuming there is some justice in this world and they actually are the better wrestlers. Am I wrong?
Speaker 1:is that impossible. There have been times it is almost 100 has to do with the amount that they are over with the crowd and what that means is this is a term that's used in professional wrestling of like. There is a time in which a wrestler is building themselves up through their matches and persona and time on the mic where they're calling out other wrestlers and saying how great they are, whatever, whatever strategy they use to build their character. There's a moment in which they go over where, like, the audience just starts to lose it. When they come out, the charisma has been built to a point that everybody wants to see them and you'll see even on rosters when you're looking at active rosters, there's certain groups of people that you're kind of seeing. The same wrestlers come out because that's what the crowd wants.
Speaker 1:It's very much dictated by relationships within the company, the charisma with the audience and also technical ability, how they look. I mean everything. It's almost sales. It's almost sales to a certain degree, but wrestling does factor into it. If you're not a fantastic wrestler generally. That's actually my big beef with Hulk Hogan. I don't think he's a fantastic wrestler, I think that he's just a lot of charisma for the time that he was in. I don't think he's a fantastic wrestler.
Speaker 3:I think that he's just a lot of charisma for the time that he was in. But if Taylor Swift walked out at a at the Royal rumble, the crowd would go crazy. Yeah, she's a shit wrestler, I bet.
Speaker 1:Yeah, she's amazing and I can vouch for her.
Speaker 2:Careful, you might wind up on that next record who is she dating now? Travis Kelsey.
Speaker 1:Travis Kelsey. Um? Who is she dating now? Travis kelsey, travis kelsey, that's his name, correct. Yeah, yeah, yeah who travis, kelsey has a brother correct?
Speaker 1:yeah, something else, kelsey. Do you know that he came out at? He was like a figure in um. It was like a match that was called a philadelphia street fight. Uh, yeah, he came out. He was like one of the masked wrestlers and it was revealed he was one of them. There are an unbelievable amount of celebrities that are on the roster Currently. Logan Paul, who is. Whether you love him or hate him, I actually think it's the greatest place that he's ever been Like. I despised him as an influencer. He is perfect for pro wrestling because you can just hate him like and enjoy hating him.
Speaker 1:It's. It's a perfect and he's very athletic. Pat McAfee, former NFL player, is an announcer and often is involved in the ring. Bad bunny, who is a multi-platinum selling artist and, I believe, grammy award winner. He is also a professional wrestler Celebrity, plays into it First WrestleMania ever. Do you know who is the featured um wrestler? Ronald reagan great, honestly, uh, former former president donald trump has been in the ring before, by the way he has been featured. He has wrestled before. Uh no, cindy lopper, cindy lopper hell, yeah, I gotta find this.
Speaker 2:Oh, it's great yeah again.
Speaker 3:I bet she's not a good wrestler. Yeah no, but it's fun.
Speaker 2:Yeah, this is the whole. Thing. It is fun, I get this.
Speaker 1:In this wrestling universe you bring in celebrities and it's this place that they can engage.
Speaker 3:But it's about celebrity. It's not about the wrestling.
Speaker 2:Isn't that what it can offer to?
Speaker 1:watch wrestling. You can go find folk wrestling out in the backyard. If you want to watch something insane and so cool it's, you can go watch this dumb wrestling and I love it and I mean that's it and and. But wrestling, yeah, your technical ability, your willingness to engage in true like truly great, great um athletic ability and prowess, and giving yourself to the move, selling them everything else, it's the number one way that people get over. That's. That's really the big thing is like the people who are great at wrestling generally do that. But celebrity is a part of it as well, and I think just to, I don't know.
Speaker 3:I think to to reset the track that I'm I'm on is is I do clearly have strong feelings about this, but it's a um, it's a, it's a thing, there's a name for it, there's it's. The kayfabe barrier is this idea that um that. Wrestling is not not really a sport. It's at it's athletic.
Speaker 1:I thank you, at least we got him there.
Speaker 3:It's not a sport but there's the, the desire to continue to portray it as if it is yeah, right, and so there's in fiction. We would call that a suspension of disbelief. When we go to the movies, I have no problem believing that Brad Pitt is, you know whatever the Spartan warrior or the international spy. I can do all of that because I know it's fiction and I'm going for the purpose of fiction. But with wrestling it's presenting itself as a reality, right, but it's a fiction, yep, right.
Speaker 3:And so what you're narrating here, though, is you're saying that there's an overlap, and I haven't heard the overlap yet.
Speaker 1:It's coming All right. Here we go. So Bret and Shawn Michaels. So Bret Hart Shawn Michaels they have this contentious relationship. Bret always maintained and I'm wondering if this is also going to cause question marks he maintained this professional relationship with him. What professionalism is is knowing that you're presenting this match in the ring, but you're also willing to not hurt the other person. You're willing to, like, kind of make sure that they look good as much as you look good in hitting the moves and everything else. And he even dropped his belt to him.
Speaker 1:So at the time, bret Hart was the champion and agreed like, yep, we're going to have a match in which I drop the belt to Shawn Michaels in a 60-minute Iron man match, meaning that no matter what was going to happen, it wasn't pinfall, it wasn't anything else, it was can either of these men men, uh, stand up at the end of an hour-long wrestling match? It's still like legendary. And sean was the one who got up, took the belt and, uh, he gave him that love at the time, during this era, the ratings of the wwf, as when sean took the belt, um, um, we're not beating WCW, um, and this is creating even more tension between the two of them Cause Brett's like you want to throw me back on because I was doing really well um at the time. Um, but this also didn't bode well for keeping Brett because, as this is starting to sink, um, you know WCW is going to be like how about this mini million? How about this mini million, even with Brett's loyalist tendencies? So Brett had the idea when coming back that he could take the belt back, like coming back for a title run. He could take the belt back and had a plan to put over Shawn Michaels and they discussed this at the time like I think it was on an airplane and Brett could tell by his facial expression he despised that idea. He's like I just got the belt, this is my time to build this up. No, I don't want this to happen.
Speaker 1:So during this time, wcw makes the offer. While he is filming at this is Bret Hart, uh, voiceover for the Simpsons. He had a like a guest spot on the Simpsons for $2.8 million. This was huge um for nineties wrestling at the time, with 280 live dates per year, which is um significantly less than most wrestlers have to um hit Um. It would give them more time for recovery.
Speaker 1:So Brett brings this back to Vince to give him a counter argument. Um Vince gives him. He says I'm not going to be able to match the numbers at the time, but I'll give you a 20 year deal of three more active years six years of being a senior advisor and 10 more as a standby legend. And what that means is is basically, you're going to be wrestling all the time for three years six years. You're going to come out for guest spots and you'll have a few matches here and there and then, like for 10 years, we'll only put you in the most serious matches, like you could be guest referee. We're going to feature you in the storylines, um, and at the end of that you're going to be looking at $10.5 million.
Speaker 1:That's what he's looking at. If you think about it. Wcw that yearly contract of 2.8 mil is probably going to go up each year. If he's doing well, in three years he's going to clear what he cleared in 20 with Vince. But even then, brett still sticks with Vince. He just feels like he owes him his life and he says I'm going to.
Speaker 2:I'm going to keep to that. I feel like history has proven that's always the wrong choice Seems to be.
Speaker 1:Seems to be Take that quick money and run.
Speaker 2:Yeah.
Speaker 1:That's it for everything.
Speaker 2:I just mean sticking with Vince yeah.
Speaker 1:Oh yeah, especially, we're at the height of him in tremendous scandal right now. So yeah, that's definitely the case. So once he got the contract after it basically had like a handshake agreement 20-year thing sounds good Once he actually saw the contract, it was far more controlling. He looks at it on the table and it's saying you got to do this, make sure, if the matches are like this, you're going to need to do this. Here's how the belt is going to work for you. And he doesn't like it. He wants revision and concessions right. The most notable concession and this has to do with what we're going to talk about that he has to make is he says, if he decides to leave, he has 30 days of reasonable creative control over his storyline and how he has the belt doesn't have the belt. Whatever it is is a reasonable control over the storyline.
Speaker 2:Brett has that control. Yes, brett can basically hijack the script and be like this is what we're doing for the next 30 days.
Speaker 1:Well, it's reasonable. So it's like there's a negotiation that happens but he gets a part in it. So Brett approaches Sean with the idea they agree to this. Brett approaches Sean with the idea that any personal stuff that they've had shouldn't enter the ring. Like I feel like this has been negotiated. I'm going to be around for a while. And he says like I just want to let you know I'll always treat you like a professional in the ring, even though we've had our differences. Michael's directly tells him uh, thank you for saying that. I will not offer the same to you.
Speaker 2:Like, just this is real.
Speaker 1:This is not part of the storyline. This is in the locker rooms. How do you know? Because both of them have confirmed in interviews.
Speaker 3:Why would they lie?
Speaker 1:Don.
Speaker 3:Because of the kayfabe thing, they're supposed to lie all the time. But isn't this fun?
Speaker 2:Yeah, this is fun, just stay fun.
Speaker 1:Hey man, be a cool guy.
Speaker 2:This is the second act of the film.
Speaker 1:Yeah, please, I'm enjoying it.
Speaker 2:So get off your phone. I'm listening to the film.
Speaker 1:So Sean would not drop the belt. And to Brett, coming back and goes out on injury, says I have a knee injury this going back to K-Fab. We still to this day doesn't know if that's true or not, but basically says I'm on, I'm injured, so uh, I'm not gonna have a match with him. And uh goes and drops the belt due to injury because that's how much he hates him at the time. This leads to um, maybe the most important match ever for stone cold steve austin, which I think is probably the biggest cultural reference wrestler um of the more modern era, um, in which um heart actually turns heel, meaning turns into a bad guy, because he puts steve austin and it's in a submission only match, he puts him in the sharpshooter.
Speaker 1:Um steve austin um is is he uh is cut in that match. If, if you guys don't know. Another thing is wrestlers often will hide small razor blades in their either sweat bands on their wrists or somewhere in their speedo if that's what they're wearing in which they'll create minor cuts on themselves so they're bleeding. If it's a particularly intense match, um, which has caused controversy throughout the years, um stone cold is cut very badly in this match and he's in the sharpshooter and he doesn't give up, but he passes out due to blood loss, which is hilarious because it's like it's just there's like some blood on his face, it's like it's just there's like some blood on his face.
Speaker 2:It's like wait for real he passes out.
Speaker 1:Uh, no, no, no, this is, this is part of the storyline, exactly, yeah, yeah, exactly, um, but he passes it's irritating, right, but it's also like a riddle.
Speaker 3:It's kind of irritating.
Speaker 1:It's like interpreting a david foster wallace book or something so he passes out and the reason this is significant is he doesn't tap out. It creates the persona of Stone Cold Steve Austin, because he's the only guy ever he's put in the sharpshooter. He wouldn't tap out to the greatest submission move. Like you know, ric Flair's got the ankle, the figure four, ankle lock, we got the sharpshooter. Everybody taps out to it. But Steve Austin's so tough, he didn't, he passed, he passed out, he never tapped out and it's a really big part of his persona. So, as he does that, brett stands up, looks at steve austin, um, who is passed out on the canvas, um, and starts, while he's unconscious, kicking him uh and beating him senselessly and so like. Even in passed out state the crowd is like shocked because Brett has been such a great guy. And here's this guy passed out in the middle of the ring and this puts him over as this bad guy.
Speaker 1:There Brett Hart starts the new part of his storyline and it was such a good idea. I think this is a great storyline. He basically said that Stone Cold Steve Austin, which at the time he was like the beer drinking, swindling like southern, you know, kind of uh, the texas rattlesnake was his name, uh, name, oh yeah, absolutely. Uh, hates his boss like um foul mouth guy. Basically, bret hart said this is the representation of america and I despise everything about it. This shows the moral decay. And what was cool about this is he was the biggest villain in the us, but everywhere else in the world he was loved when he because he's canadian. When he's in canada, people are just loving him because it's like, yeah, down with america. When he's in europe, people love him, but in in the US he's absolutely despised. Because all he talked about is the current decay of America.
Speaker 2:He was right, we should have listened to Brett. Let's bring back Brett, baby Dark. Brett was on to something.
Speaker 1:He really was. Rivalry begins again where I believe Belt has passed back to Sean at a certain point or Sean's competing for it. Either way, their rivalry continues and other things enter, like Sean attacking the fact that he's not faithful to his wife, sean Hart going after Sean again for various things, sean Hart going after Sean again for various things, and this actually leads to a real backstage locker room fight in which, especially when things were not good with Bret Hart's actual family who's having a contentious time, the infidelity claims didn't help and this leads to a physical fight. It's a real one, don't look at me like that.
Speaker 1:You don't know Absolutely. It's a real one that happens in the back room. A fight doctor, he's like this one's real. But Sean files for saying this is an unsafe work environment, I quit and goes from there. Undertaker, one of the other characters. He was actually my favorite wrestler of all time. He's a ghost, right. He's he kind of in a sense. He kind of in a sense because he shows up. He shows up in ways he has relations with the, with the ghosts, with Letting the Cray.
Speaker 3:I mean who?
Speaker 1:hasn't. When I say relations with the dead.
Speaker 3:I'm not talking about sexual relations.
Speaker 1:I'm talking about. He has. It's like his thing is is that he could commune with the dead.
Speaker 3:So Undertaker eventually gets the belt, it goes to you know, that doesn't really sound a lot better.
Speaker 1:Just it does, it does. He's my favorite of all time, and don't talk about it.
Speaker 2:He forms community with the dead. That's cool.
Speaker 1:That's very cool, but eventually Brett takes it, and this sets the stage for Brett to drop his belt when the attitude era is beginning with Stone Cold's becoming more popular.
Speaker 3:At the time, shawn Michaels drop his belt doesn't mean, he's undressing that's correct again not sexual relations.
Speaker 1:I don't know why this keeps coming up, but no, it's him talking, it's. It's who the belt is going to next, because if these are staged moments, you drop the belt.
Speaker 3:So you just say if. Yeah, you say, if these are staged.
Speaker 1:All right, he's just he's too much Folks. I'm expecting that you've tuned out by now. I mean, it's just so much negativity in the air Don's turned.
Speaker 2:Heel he's a star. Here he is the bad guy.
Speaker 3:Hollywood.
Speaker 1:Don's turned heel. He's trying to be the bad guy Hollywood.
Speaker 3:Don, that's Hollywood. Don, that's right, my goatee is a different color.
Speaker 1:That's right, we're going to get you stacked up. So Shawn Michaels eventually comes back.
Speaker 2:He becomes part of this group called Degeneration X, degeneration X, degeneration X. Oh, because they're degenerate. They're degenerates. Yeah, they're bad guys. D-generation X, d-generation X. Oh, because they're degenerate, they're degenerates. Yeah, they're bad guys.
Speaker 1:Yeah, because it's the attitude area Everybody's gross, everybody's lewd Grimy, grimy boys.
Speaker 2:Grimy boys.
Speaker 1:A grimy time for a grimy nine or 10-year-old Grimy nation.
Speaker 1:Grimy nation baby so and he's beginning to pull significantly more than Brett is at the time because everything is trending towards this. So it becomes where, even though Brett is on a lot of these pay-per-view events and cards, they'll put Sean on afterwards and he's trending more with the audience. So attitudes begin to change, where Vince is beginning to think that Brett might not be worth the amount that he paid and WCW keeps knocking on the door and Vince famously told him think with your head and not your heart, basically telling him that the money's good enough.
Speaker 2:And he said Vince, but my name is heart.
Speaker 1:I hope he did. I hope he did so. Brett heartbroken uh, he did. I hope he did so. Brett heartbroken uh. Decides to seal the deal and sign with wcw, letting him know my 30 days are here, and what do we know about these 30 days he can do?
Speaker 2:anything carte blanche reasonably reasonable control.
Speaker 1:Ron, that's what you don't get carried away.
Speaker 2:I wish they told that to jj abrams in the last star wars film, but it's terrible thanks, uh, yeah, so I went out uh so when this happens, um, he's still pissed off at sean michaels.
Speaker 1:He's like no, I'm not dropping the belt to him. Uh, how I want to go out is we're gonna have one more match. I'm leaving with the belt when I go to WCW. That's my reasonable control. Heads at WWF say no, ratings are starting to pick up. We're losing Brett. He's been a staple of this. We're not taking it over because that doesn't look good. It doesn't look good that the champion is going over to.
Speaker 3:WCW.
Speaker 1:Don't let this happen, vince. Don't let this happen, vince. Don't let this happen, vince. And um, yeah, they suggest that they fix this match. Let let our man Brett think whatever he wants. All the matches are fixed.
Speaker 3:No, but this one's, really this one's actually fixed, though, don.
Speaker 2:If every match is fixed, then none of them are fixed until one of them is fixed, don do we need to pause the podcast to explain this to you?
Speaker 1:do we need to show you the footage? Uh, that's what I have to say. So, um, yeah, so they're debating on just explain to me, though.
Speaker 3:How. How is the match fixed if all the matches are fixed? What makes the this fix different than other fixes?
Speaker 1:it's a double fix and you want your second fix and you got it. Brett believes going into this match. Up to this point you agree there's going to be, and what they decide on and what Brett is told and is agreed on is there's going to be a disqualification. We're going to go into this match. There will be a DQ, that happens, disqualified, and you can keep your belt because it was a dirty match and so you end your reign with the belt and you can go over to WCW.
Speaker 3:And what makes a disqualification in this?
Speaker 1:game.
Speaker 3:In this case it has no rules and people can throw chairs and razor blades?
Speaker 1:No, I told you, if they use weapons it's an instant disqualification. You said they hide the razor blade in their speedos.
Speaker 3:No, nobody sees the razor blade. No one knows about that. I knew this was going to happen.
Speaker 1:I knew you were going to do this to me, this, so this was going to be interference. Interference isn't allowed. So members of D-Generation X were going to run into the ring and interfere with the match and members of the Hart Foundation, which are Brett's crew that were there, were going to go in and defend.
Speaker 2:He needs to workshop that Hart Foundation.
Speaker 3:Sounds like something in a Hallmark movie. Yeah, yeah. You're the one who said soap opera Hart Foundation is a Hallmark Christmas movie. We need to write that.
Speaker 1:If Bret Hart was in it, I'd watch it. I'll tell you that much right now. So the reason it's a double fixin', if you will, is Bret thinks that he's going in and this is the agreed upon match, but they decide we're going to do this a different way. We're going to make sure that Sean gets this belt, and I'll suspend our thoughts about this for just a moment, because we are now officially at the screw job. The match has been decided at Survivor Series. So this is the name of the pay-per-view event Survivor Series that they're going to do, and the decided outcome is disqualification. So to give you an idea of what happens, I'm going to give you a play-by-play of the match. We're in Montreal.
Speaker 3:Red.
Speaker 1:Heart's hometown, love this poutine. Thank you, it's maple syrup. It's so lame.
Speaker 2:Audience reeks Absolutely Cheese Molson's just affluent. Everyone's wearing the Niagara Falls poncho.
Speaker 1:Couldn't be more disappointed in you. I'm moving to Canada. Me and Neil Young are going to tear it up up there with, brett Michaels enters first holding aadian flag that he destroys in front of the audience.
Speaker 2:oh, very please tell me you're in. Yes, I'm in. Don are you?
Speaker 3:I'm in are you in great come on.
Speaker 1:This is good setting this up for five years this is good theater and he walks in holding the canadian flag and just destroys, in front of everyone, the degenerate that he is doesn't seem like it's very inclusive, like Like we're bringing people together.
Speaker 3:Okay, you're done, but that's what sports are about.
Speaker 1:Brett enters to An absolute outpouring of support. There's upper in the audience. He had the signature thing he did. He came out in these like kind of wraparound sunglasses that he would always take off and give to a kid in the audience. And he walks in for the last time. That's real. That is heart foundation. He gives them to these kids, gives them to the kids, gets into the ring and you know, know, it's just absolutely electrifying the match starts with an attack.
Speaker 1:Before the bell, the bell has not rung. Whoa, yes, start the match. And in that moment, um, there are ref. The referee who's in in the match is actually decked. There's so much violence between the two men. The referee is decked, falls out of the ring. Other referees try to get involved. They're being decked. The the action goes outside of the ring.
Speaker 3:Yes, don, but it's pretend the referee pretends to you but it feels like real life where are they?
Speaker 2:I'm a kid I'm wearing bret hart sunglasses.
Speaker 1:You are, you're seeing this, I'm watching, I'm like and in the audience, didn't see it at home, but his eyes got real big, to say the least, right and so, um, as this is happening, eventually, um, the the match officially starts. After that, the match has already been happening outside of the ring. Inside the ring, the bell finally rings and we get this going. That's what I'm saying. So, as that happens, we're pulling this off, um, back and forth.
Speaker 1:The match goes um the crowd cheering for brett, booing Michaels, michaels jeering at the crowd going here's your champion Absolutely disgusting. And we're waiting for this potential interference. They're even showing them backstage and it's like it's setting up what you think is going to be. Oh, they're going to blow this match. At this moment, this moment, brett goes for a move called a sledge, in which you stand on the top ropes, jump off the top and bring both your fists down on the back of your opponent and in that moment, sean michaels grabs the referee, throws him in the way and brett sledge lands on the head of the referee, knocking him out. Anything goes at this point. There's no ref to call this thing, as this is wrongs with me, I knew I'd at least get you this cool, yeah so um.
Speaker 1:So, as this happens, uh, michael starts to get the better from the match and he takes brett to the ground. Brett's on the ground. In an absolutely shocking turn of events, sean michaels puts brett in his own submission hold the. The sharpshooter turns him over to his back. The ref suddenly awakes out of his knocked out state and gets up seeing that he's in this situation and Vince McMahon, who is standing ringside, says you better ring that bell. Brett's not In this moment. The entire crowd uproar of rage and anger because Brett did not tap out to his own submission. Vince McMahon called for the end of this match. Bret Hart released from the submission Shawn Michaels, looking like he's shocked even though we know he's in on it.
Speaker 3:We know that he's in on it.
Speaker 1:Bret Hart stands up, hawks a loogie and spits on Vince McMahon's face. If you look up images of this, the amount of loogie on this man's hair is unbelievable. It's so disgusting to look at actually, but he spits on his face.
Speaker 3:It's like Cameron Diaz he's talking about.
Speaker 2:there's something about Mary right there One of the best of all time.
Speaker 1:Brett starts tearing apart parts of the ring. He's destroying things. He looks up at the camera and crowd and he writes in the air with his single digit WCW indicating his disdain and anger for the way that he's been treated. After all of his service, all the loyalty that he's given to this man, he's been screwed over by Vince in being told that this match goes a certain way. And so Brett jumps out of the subby If he's screwed over, we've got the spitting, we've got everything else and he runs out of the ring. He goes to the locker room and he runs out of the ring. He goes to the locker room, vince follows him out, shawn Michaels goes back belt in hand. And this is actually the moment that some people will call it the beginning of the Attitude Era, because Vince has never looked more like a bad guy and Stone Cold. Steve Austin's greatest rivalry he ever had. It was with Vince McMahon. The greatest moments were not his wrestling like a lot of the time, as people say. Mcmahon Like. The greatest moments were not his wrestling Like a lot of the time, as people say, but it was the moment in which he got to either beat up or shame the boss because Vince was so hated.
Speaker 1:After this backstage, uh, the locker room is going absolutely nuts and famously Vince says I want to be able to talk to Brett, I'm going to stand here. When he finally gets inside the dressing room, he looks over at Brett and Brett says if you're still here here by the time that I get out of the shower, I'm gonna knock you clean out. When he comes out of the shower, vince is still standing there and he's like I'll give you one. Brett proceeds to deck him. He falls over, even, uh, injuring his ankle. Like he falls over. It gets like completely sustained in that and brett leaves the wwf on one of the saddest notes. Fans uproar of how upset they are in the way that this is conducted and Don you might say, well it's all fixed anyway.
Speaker 1:It's all fake.
Speaker 3:I don't sound like that you do when you talk like that you do, don when you talk like that you do.
Speaker 1:You become this other version and it's so painful to hear you become this other version, and it's so painful to hear. And it's, in my opinion, when you ask what makes great wrestling writing, this is one of the greatest moments and saddest moments in the history of the WWF, so you think this was a good thing. I hate that Bret Hart was screwed over, but when it comes to a storyline and what it built, arguably it's one of the most important moments in the history of sports entertainment.
Speaker 2:I love that I didn't think you're gonna go that far, yeah and so what?
Speaker 1:what is actually tragic about it is wcw. Even though they have so much um funding, they don't do story as well, they don't do promotion as well and eventually, like wcw does, collapse. Brett really never got the same level of attention.
Speaker 1:He had great matches in wcw with guys like sting um with uh, he was on uh money for nothing yep, yeah, yeah, yeah and uh, that's uh, that's definitely the exact same guy, not the guy who kind of looks like brandon lee and crow uh with a baseball bat and WCW, if that's okay. Um, uh, it actually really affected him. And then, uh, brett, to this day, I mean uh, discusses how that was kind of the beginning of the end for him. Um, and even though his legacy of being one of the greatest, um greatest is there, he is mostly remembered in the timeline as being the guy that was screwed over and it breaks my heart. But it also led to the Attitude Era of WWF, which is what put them on the map as the most landmark pro wrestling organization in the world.
Speaker 1:Yes, you've got to help me understand because I'm I don't think about the layers of story that we have here. Well, that's, that's the mic.
Speaker 3:that's the problem that I think I'm struggling with is okay. So we're fighting over a belt that we're not actually winning. We're just deciding around some story table in a writer's room who's going to get it Right, and a very good one at that. So why does it matter to Brett so much that he retains this pretend belt when, like, he can just go to WCW and they can make up a story that he, you know, found an ancient Aztec belt, or he's like?
Speaker 2:why does it Not the power of the aztec belt? Or he's like, why does it?
Speaker 3:not the power of the aztec. It's a pretended belt, so what does it matter if he takes it or he doesn't take it? I think can I?
Speaker 1:I'd love you to take it wrong, because I'm sick of defending this beautiful moment. What?
Speaker 2:I see, is it's not about you gotta. You're focused on the belt, but you gotta look at the forest and you're stuck on the trees. That's right. It's about legacy, it's about persona right, that's it. He's been working for I don't know how many years five years, 25 years? I don't remember.
Speaker 1:Yeah, doing it since he was a young kid at least he's been working all the time.
Speaker 2:You want to go out and you want people to know that you won the fake belt because that matters to someone. Some kid knows. Bret Hart was the champion, Whether or not that championship means anything. He was that and now he's denied it.
Speaker 1:I would be mad. Your last moments in the company, when we went to the party and said thank you so much for your 25 years of service. You get there and the cake is made out of, I don't know, salt or sand and it's served up to everybody else. And we're like you know what, you're actually kind of a bag of dicks and that's it. You know, like it's, like that's that's what you look at.
Speaker 2:That's my nightmare. I dream of this man. Yeah, this is bad.
Speaker 1:Your last moments, and that's what you're given. And so, in those 30 days of creative writing which he's given, it was more important to keep WWF going than it was to say thank you for your service, and I think that the beauty of the moment is seeing that in the writer's room I think it becomes almost. What isn't real is maybe we're making the belt drop to people that we don't have, but the emotional context of the human condition, of seeing that your service is not worth it, that that, like loyalty to the company, is not as important after everything that you've given resonates with the human psyche in a way that makes me a wrestling fan see, and I can, I can be on board with that.
Speaker 3:If we're talking about the, the reality of the situation of, of a, of a company saying this is the script, but it's, it's not secretly, it's really not the script like that and we're just going to publicly humiliate you yep, because in your hometown, right, I can understand all of that, but that's the reality of it. That's not the wrestling part of it. The wrestling part of it is what seems I struggle with, because it's pretending to be real, it's pretending to be about the belt and it's pretending to be about the championship, and none of that is real. That's not really the tragedy here. The tragedy is what you're you're saying. The tragedy is that he did demonstrate loyalty to this company and then, at the last moment, he he changed his loyalty, and to punish him for that change of loyalty, they publicly humiliate him instead of just let him slide away, because because I mean the story the story is still controlled by, by wwe f, whatever they, whatever alphabet soup they had at the moment, but it wasn't wcw because so.
Speaker 3:So he retains the belt and and then he goes to wcw. Then the very next week vince can go on and say, oh, we looked at the tapes and you know he did drugs or whatever, and we're gonna retroactively take this pretend belt back. None of that is real. That doesn't affect me at all.
Speaker 1:But the words that are constructed on a page are just words if they're not constructed together with the respect of the audience, of the reader who is reading them, and just in that same bars over here, Doug yes.
Speaker 1:The way that the film that captures the images of the actors that have given their lives to the performances that change people's lives and minds and ideas about who they are, because they resonate with the human condition. I will give a part of my life to watch great men and women step inside the squared circle, to give the stories and the amount of hope and dreams that are potentially shattered by this moment to make you want that hope back so badly that you'll continue to tune in every week and watch your heroes rise again, and that's why I love wrestling but wouldn't it be better if they actually were winning those no Like?
Speaker 3:isn't that the point? Like they're heroes because they win, not because they convince somebody at the Well Don.
Speaker 1:That's why I also watch the UFC. And that does happen, that's fair.
Speaker 2:To me it's like the realm of myth. We've entered the realm of modern myth-making.
Speaker 3:Right it is. It doesn't matter that Sisyphus never existed and there was never a boulder that he put up, but can't I be?
Speaker 2:inspired, can't I be inspired by the tale of the man named Sisyphus who had to push that boulder up the hill over?
Speaker 1:and over again. Absolutely, I think you're supposed to be defeated by that image.
Speaker 2:No, I'm going to keep doing that too. Absolutely no, I think it's. It's very fascinating to me. It's just like a drama that has like bathed the fourth wall in a flamethrower, right Like it's just like.
Speaker 1:It's like an evolution of drama, I find yeah, right, and I think, don, where you despise it, I'm fascinated by it because it's the weirdest. It is strange.
Speaker 2:I mean, that is the one thing I can say, and we should also say like deeply corrupt and bad, and a lot of these people are absolutely chewed up by this machine and do not recover people are absolutely chewed up by this machine and do not recover.
Speaker 3:Yeah, we should not be like yeah, we should not Disney.
Speaker 2:Disney fi the WWE.
Speaker 1:Yeah, um yeah, cause it can be incredibly rough, but I think that's why I will give it the love that I do is because the people who devote their lives to it. It is such a um, it's such an interesting craft to me of how to deliver this story and to do it through this. Yeah, again, going back to catches, can, catches, catch can wrestling, and these move sets and these things where combat kind of centers around it and the idea of ego and destruction. All of these things can play out on this ring. That becomes a stage.
Speaker 3:Well, I think we could probably take a page out of the the W W. Good luck.
Speaker 1:He did it.
Speaker 3:We can just uh uh script out what's going to be our, our next, uh confrontation and we'll decide who's going to win the sorry drop? Who's going to drop a belt? Oh yeah, drop belt.
Speaker 2:I'm going to drop belt. Uh, drop, who's going to drop a belt? Oh yeah, drop belt. I'm going to drop belt. Thank you so much, doug. I feel more connected to humanity now actually. I'm feeling very positive. You've done something tremendous for me. Thank you, it's an honor. It's an honor, gentlemen.
Speaker 3:He knew it was going to happen before we started.
Speaker 1:It wasn't real, so did I, he paid me to say that we will see you next time, folks, thank you.
